yes it does, and for that I'd like to direct you to the LSPI and blown engines thread.:lol:
Oh, I know... I wish more tuners were aware of the concepts of stochastic preignition and megaknock at low speed high load. We're pretty aware of this on the OEM side. There's a reason that the factory stops where they do with boost numbers. Aftermarket guys go in and just zero out the limiters, then wonder why something broke as if the OEM guys just put the limiter there for no reason. :doh:
I use 100% of the factory limiters, and just FYI zeroing them out wouldn't allow your vehicle to run. ;)
I am intimately familiar with Ford Ecoboost controls. I worked there for a while... ;) I won't get into specifics of the control logic here, so don't bother asking.
So, you recommend controlling boost with the throttle then? Is that what you are saying? Because these limiters are all applied to the ETC logic, when limiters are clipped the throttle comes in and plays it's role. It controls load, boost, and airflow which I'm sure you know.
He can create a new thread if he would like to discuss. I know who he is, and that he works with OE's and has access to all the OE tables for the Ecoboost because he worked on OE development.Damn I was just starting to enjoy that conversation.
The 7163 is going to murder that is for sure, that is if you are talking about murdering your wallet. In all other scenarios except maybe rolling burn outs the the Stage 2 will be faster in the real world. Adam said it himself he went with a bigger turbo (7670) to intentionally slow down spool to help at the track. This should tell you guys what I was saying before. While the TQ down low is fun as hell to drive, its not going to help you in a race, its going to usually break traction, have you spinning, and its not going to pull as hard up top. All things that will have you going slower when it counts.
If you want fast spool and excellent street manners you get the fast spooling turbo. If you have the tire/suspension to hold it at the track you are going to go faster than any slower spooling turbo. My turbo swap was completely focused on my choice to make more than 500whp, and to pair with my new stall converter and future 4.10 gear.
So the difference between the 7163 that you use to recommend vs the 7670 is 450 whp max and to get anymore we would need a built long block vs the 7670 600+ with just a shortblock?If you want fast spool and excellent street manners you get the fast spooling turbo. If you have the tire/suspension to hold it at the track you are going to go faster than any slower spooling turbo. My turbo swap was completely focused on my choice to make more than 500whp, and to pair with my new stall converter and future 4.10 gear.
1.) Fast spool will always be faster than a slower spooling turbo, If you have the tire and suspension for it.
2.) Quick spool will be fast, and when you make the sacrifices for spool you make up for it in the top end and are still ahead of the next guy that is still getting up to speed.
3.) Slow spool isn't fast. If you make the same top end power as the "quick spooling" guy above (#2) you are never going to catch up when he 1/8 miles you.
This is drag racing/racing 101, the fastest street cars at the track need to be fast in the first half and the back half. You need to have a happy medium of both spool and power. You can't just have one.
All I had to do was sell my turbo and bolt on a new one. Unfortunately if you want to upgrade from a stock frame turbo you have to buy a kit. So you are now selling a used stock frame turbo for a loss, and having to buy a whole new kit because you want to make more power or spooling at 4k+ RPMs wasn't for you.
By slower spool, I was shooting for 400-600rpms slower spool with the 7670. Not the 1500-1700 slower spool you have with a stock frame upgrade. So far I am right on target, need to get it on a dyno and tune the car but so far on the street on spring pressure it looks like my target was hit.
Hell, Ken Compton's 8374EFR on a shorty twin scroll manifold is making 32psi at 3750rpms (starting at 2700rpms). A much, much larger turbo than my 7670EFR and on a first version CPE manifold which has since been updated.
So with that being said, my original goal of 400-600rpms slower spool than the 7163EFR shouldn't be too big of an issue. I'm probably just going to start recommending they go with the 7670 so they still get faster spool than any other kit/turbo upgrade, and have the ability to make 600whp if needed.
Tony is absolutely right, the kit is more expensive than a stock frame upgrade. It also includes a downpipe, intake, chargepipe, and a high flowing twin scroll manifold, which all cost money and it all takes time to make. We all know time cost money as well. In the end you are ending up with a proven product (BorgWarner) that has been tested more than just 2 days on a dyno before they went into production and started selling.
At the end of the day you can choose to buy $100.00 Microsoft Laptop, or you can buy a $2000.00 Macbook. Both get you on the internet, and both can create word documents, but if your job is graphic design you know which one is the better choice.
Also - This thread is ONLY supposed to be discussing performance from a turbo, someone keeps wanting to make it about cost and justification of performance.
If a customer wants a certain turbo because of a price-point then they can collect the data for spool here, if they want to know the performance capacity of a turbo they can find it elsewhere. This thread isn't created to tell you which turbo to buy, it is to help you make your choice on all the kits available. Every option is great, every option performs, every option has it's ups and downs. However at the end of the day you need to make sure the choice you make is RIGHT for what you are looking to do with the car. There is nothing perfect.
:headbonk:
The 7163 can make 500whp, the 7670 can make about 600 on these cars (more on other cars with better engine design).
