Socialism good or bad?

[Docscurlock]

It's not really about trusting politicians. We've had this medical system for fifty years - the law passed in 1967 and it was implemented nation-wide by 1971. We've had five decades of practice and we've gotten good at it and the system works pretty well. And, over that time, Canadian politicians have learned that talking about getting rid of it or making big changes is a sure-fire way to lose the next election. That's what I meant by "The voters wouldn't let them".

It is about trusting the politicians, take for example our social security system. Started in 1935, speculation it will be broke in 2034 unless something drastic is changed. 99 years to run out of other people's money and cans to kick down the road. 15 years from now, we will be too broke to service the retirement promise we've had since the 30's. Geez, guess how long until I plan on retiring and consider collecting the max contributions I've made for years. There is no way I will willingly trust another aspect of my life to some 70 something who can't keep his hands off 25 year old interns (Sanders), a woman who lies about what music she was listening to while stoned in college (Harris) or a 29 year old ex bartender who doesn't even have the slightest clue about finances, history, the way government works or even how to properly tie her own shoes (AOC). Not happening, no way, no how. If you're politicians are as trustworthy as ours, you have 32 years until your system is broke. You will go without healthcare or bow to your Chinese overlords to get it.

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[Docscurlock]

BTW, our politicians don't learn from losing at the polls. Look at the ass reaming Democrats received at the election cycle immediately following the Obamacare disaster. They didn't learn, they doubled down and told us we were too stupid to realize they were helping us.

 

[Stonehauler]

A lot of the problems that exist today is because of well meaning, but flawed legislation. Push for benefits for full time workers, and companies cut worker hours so they don't have to pay benefits. Keep adding regulations to corporations and also say "there will probably be more regulations" and companies don't want to invest in workers, because they have this regulatory uncertainty hanging over their heads.

There should absolutely be a reasonable amount of regulations on corporate entities. The problem is what is "Reasonable" to me, may be too little to some, and too much for others.

There needs to be laws and programs to protect and assist the working poor and those that are unable to work. Not only job training so people can get better jobs, but assistance during the time they are taking the training so they actually take advantage of the programs out there. It's great to offer training, but if the people who need it can't do it because they are busy working 4 jobs 60-80 hours a week to just get by, it's won't be used. For those that think the training is a waste of money, remember that if those people can take higher paying jobs, they will pay more in taxes, which should ideally offset the costs of training over time.

There needs to be a realization that not everyone is suited for higher education. There also needs to be a reality check for students and universities studying for low-pay fields. Some fields of study are not worth 300k for that 4 year degree. Parents, students, and academia need to do a sanity check. For all those professors and other individuals who claim to want to protect people, they sure don't mind saddling them with tons of debt for a (mostly) worthless degree.

That said, good vocational training can provide good paying jobs. Introducing shop classes back to high schools to teach the fundamentals of drafting, CAD, automotive repair, plumbing, wiring, can provide people with real world skills they can use to make a good living, especially when combined with community college/vocational school 2 or more year degrees.

Finally, there needs to be a reward to hard work and coming up with new ideas. If I start a company work my butt off and it becomes successful, then I should be able to reap some of the rewards for the risks I've taken. If I come up with a new way to do something, or a new invention, I should be able to profit off of the investment I made doing the research, design, prototyping, marketing, etc of that new product. If I can't, why would I work my tail off?

 

[Hack]

A lot of the problems that exist today is because of well meaning, but flawed legislation. Push for benefits for full time workers, and companies cut worker hours so they don't have to pay benefits. Keep adding regulations to corporations and also say "there will probably be more regulations" and companies don't want to invest in workers, because they have this regulatory uncertainty hanging over their heads.

There should absolutely be a reasonable amount of regulations on corporate entities. The problem is what is "Reasonable" to me, may be too little to some, and too much for others.

There needs to be laws and programs to protect and assist the working poor and those that are unable to work. Not only job training so people can get better jobs, but assistance during the time they are taking the training so they actually take advantage of the programs out there. It's great to offer training, but if the people who need it can't do it because they are busy working 4 jobs 60-80 hours a week to just get by, it's won't be used. For those that think the training is a waste of money, remember that if those people can take higher paying jobs, they will pay more in taxes, which should ideally offset the costs of training over time.

There needs to be a realization that not everyone is suited for higher education. There also needs to be a reality check for students and universities studying for low-pay fields. Some fields of study are not worth 300k for that 4 year degree. Parents, students, and academia need to do a sanity check. For all those professors and other individuals who claim to want to protect people, they sure don't mind saddling them with tons of debt for a (mostly) worthless degree.

That said, good vocational training can provide good paying jobs. Introducing shop classes back to high schools to teach the fundamentals of drafting, CAD, automotive repair, plumbing, wiring, can provide people with real world skills they can use to make a good living, especially when combined with community college/vocational school 2 or more year degrees.

Finally, there needs to be a reward to hard work and coming up with new ideas. If I start a company work my butt off and it becomes successful, then I should be able to reap some of the rewards for the risks I've taken. If I come up with a new way to do something, or a new invention, I should be able to profit off of the investment I made doing the research, design, prototyping, marketing, etc of that new product. If I can't, why would I work my tail off?

All the things you said "there needs to be" already exist. Not sure why you are acting like these things don't already exist. The US has so many redistribution programs it's hard to keep track of them all, I guess.

 

[90Notch]

There needs to be laws and programs to protect and assist the working poor and those that are unable to work.

A big part of the problem is the majority of the "working poor" will not help themselves. How many of these people have multiple children and continue to reproduce while already struggling to survive and living off the government? I'll give you a hint, it's a lot. I see it every week at the mission I volunteer at, giving food and clothes to these types of people. You can only do so much for people before they have to take responsibility for their situation. We can't be responsible for everyone's poor life decisions. We also can't keep incentivising this behavior through massive tax returns with extra money for each kid you claim, especially if you make sure your over-the-table income is below a certain threshold.

Add to this the influx of illegals that take advantage of the welfare system(s) while sending their un-taxed (see illegally earned, non-contributing) money back to their home country, and the problem is further compounded.

Also, I'd like to see the people "working 4 jobs, 60-80 hr weeks just to get by." They are few and far between. You know why? Because there's nobody with that amount of work ethic that is staying stagnant in their financial state. If they are willing to work like that, they are making moves and moving up the chain. My 17 year old works at Chickfila and is making $15+ an hour after just under a year of being employed there. She started at $8.50/hr but busts her ass and has steadily moved up. And she's not the only person there that has done similar. It's called work ethic.

Introducing shop classes back to high schools to teach the fundamentals of drafting, CAD, automotive repair, plumbing, wiring, can provide people with real world skills they can use to make a good living, especially when combined with community college/vocational school 2 or more year degrees.

This x1000. Top of the list would be how to live on a budget within your means along with the others you posted.

 

[Thereitis]

I walk in a room, you and your buddy are standing there. You have $10, your buddy has $5. YOU must have done something wrong, otherwise your buddy would have $10 as well. You now have $5 and your buddy has $5, everyone is happy, right? We don't care if you made more X or less X, or worked more hours or less. That's socialism in a nutshell.

I don't vote fyi. It doesn't matter, everyone is corrupt to the point of oblivion. I mean, as long as we have fast cars, cheap tv's, fast internet, we're fat dumb and happy right? LOOK AT THIS SHINY NEW THING! OMG Game of Thrones is ending! And on and on.

And since when has being a politician been worthy of celebration? That's like rooting for UK, Alabama, etc. WE won by 2 touchdowns! WE made the final four! Those institutions could give less than 2 damns about you, as long as you buy their shirts, Yeti's, coolers, hats, tickets, etc.

Sorry for the rant :(

 

[BmacIL]

I just spent a week in Sweden (Stockholm area) recently, mostly for work but a bit of vacation too. Anyone who thinks the US is the best place on earth needs to open their eyes and go travel. We are not. We do many things well, but we do far more quite terribly, particularly anything related to quality of life.

 

[Docscurlock]

I just spent a week in Sweden (Stockholm area) recently, mostly for work but a bit of vacation too. Anyone who thinks the US is the best place on earth needs to open their eyes and go travel. We are not. We do many things well, but we do far more quite terribly, particularly anything related to quality of life.

Lots of places look good when you're on vaca, every time I go to Cancun it seems like heaven on earth. But then reality sets in and I remember it's a corrupt third world country full of cartel violence and income disparity that would make a Rockefeller blush. The US may not be the best place but it's pretty darn good and I like it. If someone wants to experiment with socialism, there are lots of real nice places to visit. I hear Venezuela and North Korea have nice climates.

 

[BmacIL]

Lots of places look good when you're on vaca, every time I go to Cancun it seems like heaven on earth. But then reality sets in and I remember it's a corrupt third world country full of cartel violence and income disparity that would make a Rockefeller blush. The US may not be the best place but it's pretty darn good and I like it. If someone wants to experiment with socialism, there are lots of real nice places to visit. I hear Venezuela and North Korea have nice climates.

What I'm referring to is a capitalist nation that uses taxes to provide for the good of the people, just like we (try to) do. The difference is they spend the tax dollars healthcare, education, infrastructure. These are things we pay lipservice to with our tax dollars but which are so broken, that they negatively affect the lives of millions upon millions of people. Would you pay 3% or 5% more in taxes, along with dropping your monthly insurance premiums, such that you could just...go to the hospital when you got sick? Or do you have the attitude that so many have, where you say, 'F em, I don't want to pay for what I don't need right now or other people'? That will hold us back forever. It will hold back the economy. All the people holding onto crappy jobs with no future and no ability to try and advance themselves because they need to keep their health insurance. Meanwhile, their health insurance is so damn expensive and crappy because of the economy of scale of their plan, that they can't buy a home, or a new car, or any number of things that boost the economy and improve their life. Education is the same thing, and all of it is is broken.

No government is ever completely exempt from corruption, but you at least see where the money goes and the attitude of the government. The focus is on the people, not vast groups of mega-rich donors who don't have the same needs as the majority of us, and want to keep it that way. IMO, being a patriot is not half the bullshit we do with the flag, but is really doing things that protects and improves the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of the people. Spending near a trillion dollars a year on our military while our healthcare and education systems are dysfunctional and broken, and while our bridges and roads are dangerous and long overdue for repair, isn't patriotic at all. Corrupt AF, more like.

 

[Jimmy G]

It's not really about trusting politicians. We've had this medical system for fifty years - the law passed in 1967 and it was implemented nation-wide by 1971. We've had five decades of practice and we've gotten good at it and the system works pretty well. And, over that time, Canadian politicians have learned that talking about getting rid of it or making big changes is a sure-fire way to lose the next election. That's what I meant by "The voters wouldn't let them".

Mate, you can't talk sense to the right wing Americans here. They are doubly damned. Firstly by the fact that they believe that everyone is out to get them, and secondly by the fact that they were born American and they still live in America.

You know Americans who live in Canada, and I know Americans who live in Australia. These people have had their eyes opened to other possibilities. Since we're talking about healthcare, here's some interesting info. America is dead last:

https://fr.april-international.com/.../which-countries-have-best-healthcare-systems


1. United Kingdom

2. Australia

3. Netherlands

4. New Zealand and Norway

6. Switzerland and Sweden

8. Germany

9. Canada

10. France

11. USA

 

[Jimmy G]

lol.

See.....right wing and paranoid.

 

[Docscurlock]

"

What I'm referring to is a capitalist nation that uses taxes to provide for the good of the people, just like we (try to) do. The difference is they spend the tax dollars healthcare, education, infrastructure. These are things we pay lipservice to with our tax dollars but which are so broken, that they negatively affect the lives of millions upon millions of people. Would you pay 3% or 5% more in taxes, along with dropping your monthly insurance premiums, such that you could just...go to the hospital when you got sick? Or do you have the attitude that so many have, where you say, 'F em, I don't want to pay for what I don't need right now or other people'? That will hold us back forever. It will hold back the economy. All the people holding onto crappy jobs with no future and no ability to try and advance themselves because they need to keep their health insurance. Meanwhile, their health insurance is so damn expensive and crappy because of the economy of scale of their plan, that they can't buy a home, or a new car, or any number of things that boost the economy and improve their life. Education is the same thing, and all of it is is broken.

No government is ever completely exempt from corruption, but you at least see where the money goes and the attitude of the government. The focus is on the people, not vast groups of mega-rich donors who don't have the same needs as the majority of us, and want to keep it that way. IMO, being a patriot is not half the bullshit we do with the flag, but is really doing things that protects and improves the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of the people. Spending near a trillion dollars a year on our military while our healthcare and education systems are dysfunctional and broken, and while our bridges and roads are dangerous and long overdue for repair, isn't patriotic at all. Corrupt AF, more like.

"What I'm referring to is a capitalist nation that uses taxes to provide for the good of the people, just like we (try to) do. The difference is they spend the tax dollars healthcare, education, infrastructure." And if I thought for a New York minute that our politicians could be trusted with our healthcare, I would sign on. Nothing they have done in my lifetime has led me to believe that they are trustworthy.

"Would you pay 3% or 5% more in taxes, along with dropping your monthly insurance premiums, such that you could just...go to the hospital when you got sick?"
5% of my payroll is more than my medical insurance now. That would drastically increase my health care costs.

"All the people holding onto crappy jobs with no future and no ability to try and advance themselves because they need to keep their health insurance. Meanwhile, their health insurance is so damn expensive and crappy because of the economy of scale of their plan, that they can't buy a home, or a new car, or any number of things that boost the economy and improve their life. Education is the same thing, and all of it is is broken." Let's work to decrease the cost of health care instead, that's where the real problem lies.

" Education is the same thing" A perfect example of a government run program that is a freakin disaster.

" IMO, being a patriot is not half the bullshit we do with the flag, but is really doing things that protects and improves the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of the people." Amen brother! Let's make sensible immigration laws, get rid of the 2 party system, pass some tort reform, make FDA approval easier than getting to the moon, and how about federal term limits. Then we can have the utopia everyone wants. That's the stuff holding us back.

"Spending near a trillion dollars a year on our military while our healthcare and education systems are dysfunctional and broken, and while our bridges and roads are dangerous and long overdue for repair, isn't patriotic at all. Corrupt AF, more like." Haleluliah!!! WE are closer to agreement than you think. we just differ on how to get there. We should just have 50 nuclear missiles and 10 machine guns, and a couple of those F35s. Oh and an A10 Warthog, them are baddass. I just don't think the answer to our nations woes are to increase my taxes and lower someone else's. Funny you mention the roads, we all pay taxes on every single gallon of gas we buy (and owners of mustangs buy their share), those taxes are supposed to be used to fix our roads. That is the perfect example of our government keeping their promises.

 

[Docscurlock]

lol.

See.....right wing and paranoid.

See..... liberal and unable to have a normal conversation without making personal insults and spewing hate.

 

[BmacIL]

5% of my payroll is more than my medical insurance now. That would drastically increase my health care costs.

Yeah that 5% would be dropped (note how I said dropping your monthly insurance premium), so you'd be even as far as costs go.

You're not wrong about anything else. Our government is a disaster and mismanages pretty much everything. The real question is why? It's not that a government is incapable of managing tax dollars appropriately, this one is. Why, though? Money. Money in everything. Special interests. Lobbyists. The ability to serve as a career politician and make your only real job to campaign, and be beholden to a select few, not work for the people who you actually represent. We fix that bullshit and we'll be well on our way.

 

[Docscurlock]

Yeah that 5% would be dropped (note how I said dropping your monthly insurance premium), so you'd be even as far as costs go.

You're not wrong about anything else. Our government is a disaster and mismanages pretty much everything. The real question is why? It's not that a government is incapable of managing tax dollars appropriately, this one is. Why, though? Money. Money in everything. Special interests. Lobbyists. The ability to serve as a career politician and make your only real job to campaign, and be beholden to a select few, not work for the people who you actually represent. We fix that bullshit and we'll be well on our way.

"Our government is a disaster and mismanages pretty much everything" Bingo!
"Special interests" Bingo
"Lobbyists. " Bingo
"The ability to serve as a career politician and make your only real job to campaign, and be beholden to a select few, not work for the people who you actually represent." And
you want to trust these people with your health and life?

"We fix that bullshit and we'll be well on our way" Exactly, we are all arguing/debating the wrong problem.

Look at that Jimmy, two people that had opposite opinions realize when they talk without spewing hate and insults realize that they agree on almost everything. If everyone in Australia is like you it's no wonder your country's greatest addition to culture is "Crocodile Dundee".

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