Socialism good or bad?

[Hack]

Capitalism = Equal Opportunity
Socialism = Equal Outcomes

Pretty simple.

Socialism is equally bad outcomes for most people, while the "ruling elites" get awesome outcomes. Look at Venezuela, where Maria Chavez is one of the richest women and most people are starving in the streets.

At least in capitalism most people get decent outcomes. If you can hold a job you will probably be able to afford a house and a car. You definitely won't have trouble affording food.

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[SVO MkII]

Socialism is equally bad outcomes for most people, while the "ruling elites" get awesome outcomes. Look at Venezuela, where Maria Chavez is one of the richest women and most people are starving in the streets.

At least in capitalism most people get decent outcomes. If you can hold a job you will probably be able to afford a house and a car. You definitely won't have trouble affording food.

People get the government they deserve.

 

[watisthis]

Socialism is equally bad outcomes for most people, while the "ruling elites" get awesome outcomes. Look at Venezuela, where Maria Chavez is one of the richest women and most people are starving in the streets.

At least in capitalism most people get decent outcomes. If you can hold a job you will probably be able to afford a house and a car. You definitely won't have trouble affording food.

Neither capitalism or socialism in an extreme is good, check my previous two posts where I quoted you. No one has been debating going full blown capitalist or socialist as neither are practical so why keep grasping at straws here.

People get the government they deserve.

People born under dictatorships get what they deserve? How about Haitians sold to the Dominican Republic to be slave labor on sugar plantations with no way of leaving? Are you trying to say democratic nations get the government they elect?

 

[Hack]

People get the government they deserve.

Some percentage of people (even about 50%) might vote against something and get it anyway, but I mostly agree.

 

[SVO MkII]

People born under dictatorships get what they deserve? How about Haitians sold to the Dominican Republic to be slave labor on sugar plantations with no way of leaving? Are you trying to say democratic nations get the government they elect?

History shows us that very few dictators come to power without support of the population, e.g., Mussolini, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Chavez, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Weather Man]

History shows us that very few dictators come to power without support of the population, e.g., Mussolini, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Chavez, etc., etc., etc.

The populations always seem surprised when the government death squads start up and are really surprised when they become an enemy of the state for pointing out they didn't sign up for that.

 

[watisthis]

History shows us that very few dictators come to power without support of the population, e.g., Mussolini, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Chavez, etc., etc., etc.

So you're telling me the Jews living in Germany got 'the government they deserve?' How about the Kurds in Iraq? Or the Uyghurs in China? You literally listed almost all the examples of governments giving their citizens what people do not deserve.

The quote you took 'people get the government they deserve' is from Joseph Maistre and he was speaking on the divine right of kings which at the time had eroded and was the cause of the French Revolution. So I would take this man's ideas with a grain of salt as he was advocating for the reinstatement of divine right.

Those same dictators held on to leadership with fear, power, and illusion and were bested by democracies and uprisings. Few nations can say people get the governments they deserve and no government is perfect, but as Lincon said "Democracy - Government of the people, for the people, and by the people."

Luckily many nations have gone away from the divine right, dictatorships, and authoritarian regimes.

 

[SVO MkII]

So you're telling me the Jews living in Germany got 'the government they deserve?'

I'm telling you that the German "people", as a collective, got what they deserved. The Russian people, and the Chinese people, all got what they deserved. Collectively, they supported authoritarian governments (all socialists, by the way), that ultimately abused and murdered millions of their own citizens. All of this was done "for the people". No thanks.

 

[watisthis]

I'm telling you that the German "people", as a collective, got what they deserved. The Russian people, and the Chinese people, all got what they deserved. Collectively, they supported authoritarian governments (all socialists, by the way), that ultimately abused and murdered millions of their own citizens. All of this was done "for the people". No thanks.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here as @Hack is the only one still talking about socialism vs capitalism as he can not grasp the idea of democratic socialistic policies fueled by a regulated capitalistic economy.

Honestly, the adage is bullshit. Sure, the Germany people at the time got what they wanted through fearmongering and resentment.

Moreover, Hitler was the only one of those elected. Obviously, the people who voted for a corrupt government that doesn't serve their interests have been manipulated into doing so, one way or another. So could you generalize your view to... "people who are manipulated into acting against their self-interest deserve the consequences of that manipulation?" Say, if someone falls victim to a con artist, does that person deserve to get swindled solely on the basis of their ignorance?

Surely we are getting offtopic tho.

 

[Jimmy Dean]

I'm not sure what you're arguing here as @Hack is the only one still talking about socialism vs capitalism as he can not grasp the idea of democratic socialistic policies fueled by a regulated capitalistic economy.

Honestly, the adage is bullshit. Sure, the Germany people at the time got what they wanted through fearmongering and resentment.

Moreover, Hitler was the only one of those elected. Obviously, the people who voted for a corrupt government that doesn't serve their interests have been manipulated into doing so, one way or another. So could you generalize your view to... "people who are manipulated into acting against their self-interest deserve the consequences of that manipulation?" Say, if someone falls victim to a con artist, does that person deserve to get swindled solely on the basis of their ignorance?

Surely we are getting offtopic tho.

Maybe you should be paying attention to what thread we are in? Socialism,good or bad? Not Democratic socialistic policies, good or bad?But Socialism, good or bad. And Socialism is a fools errand, and clusterfuck that should never be fully attempted ever again.

 

[watisthis]

Maybe you should be paying attention to what thread we are in? Socialism,good or bad? Not Democratic socialistic policies, good or bad?But Socialism, good or bad. And Socialism is a fools errand, and clusterfuck that should never be fully attempted ever again.

The entire thread is people confusing economic socialism and social welfare or a social democrat. Social democracy is still capitalism, we are a mixed economy and many want to see a better balance between worker's rights and company power along with social welfare programs as we are the largest GDP country in the world without a better balance of the two. There's a lot more to this obviously and much is for debate.

However, I agree, socialism as an economy and in late stages, communism is a horrible idea.

 

[SVO MkII]

I do appreciate the "can do" spirit of the current crop of American Socialists, or Democratic Socialists, or whatever they want to call themselves. Socialism has never created long term positive economic outcomes for any of the countries that have adopted it, but we Americans are the one's who will finally get it right. I think that also fits the classic definition of insanity. (Tip; do some research on Sweden)

 

[watisthis]

I do appreciate the "can do" spirit of the current crop of American Socialists, or Democratic Socialists, or whatever they want to call themselves. Socialism has never created long term positive economic outcomes for any of the countries that have adopted it, but we Americans are the one's who will finally get it right. I think that also fits the classic definition of insanity. (Tip; do some research on Sweden)

The Nordic countries are not socialist. If you think social welfare with a capitalist economy is socialism you do not understand what socialism is.

What people are talking about is social democracy, which is a slightly left moderate in basically every other industrial country.

The fact that we consider this socialism (see red scare) and people genuinely can not tell the difference between the two is proof no one actually gives a shit.

Edit: Take your own advice, and actually do research on 'socialist' Sweden?

 

[SVO MkII]

The Nordic countries are not socialist. If you think social welfare with a capitalist economy is socialism you do not understand what socialism is.

What people are talking about is social democracy, which is a slightly left moderate in basically every other industrial country.

The fact that we consider this socialism (see red scare) and people genuinely can not tell the difference between the two is proof no one actually gives a shit.

Edit: Take your own advice, and actually do research on 'socialist' Sweden?

Unfortunately, your political leaders aren't as well informed as you. They continue to spew that misinformation out to the lazy masses who don't bother to verify it. Yes, Sweden has been unraveling some of the social programs that have hurt their economy. Good intentions aren't good enough.

I don't see socialism as the red scare. It it simply oppressive government. Those who like freedom and respect individual rights can't be fans of socialism, "democratic", "national", "soviet", or any other variety.

https://reason.com/2019/01/02/sweden-isnt-socialist/

 

[watisthis]

Unfortunately, your political leaders aren't as well informed as you. They continue to spew that misinformation out to the lazy masses who don't bother to verify it. Yes, Sweden has been unraveling some of the social programs that have hurt their economy. Good intentions aren't good enough.

I don't see socialism as the red scare. It it simply oppressive government. Those who like freedom and respect individual rights can't be fans of socialism, "democratic", "national", "soviet", or any other variety.

https://reason.com/2019/01/02/sweden-isnt-socialist/

No, I'm not debating socialism as the red scare, I'm debating the public are woefully misinformed what socialism is because of the red scare, lack of critical thinking and fearmongering both political parties push. We must first understand freedom and individual rights in society and economics.

This is not me arguing against capitalism, rather balancing back what we have had in the past prior to the illusions the MSM has propagated. Capitalism is inherently antithetical to your interpretation of freedom. What is capitalism without bosses or landlords having complete power over employees and tenants? "Freedom is merely extended privilege unless enjoyed by all"

As much as I do fucking not want to quote Stalin as I hate him and what he did but his quote is one to remember when talking of freedoms "It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is no unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.”

Basically, you can not be really free if you are indirectly bound, hence wage slavery and the sort.

Moreover, nothing that I am, let alone anyone who is polling high is suggesting is economic socialism.

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