S650 Mustang to use unique platform with elements from CD6

[airjonny]

This sounds very promising. I would’ve like to see it shed more pounds, but it’s good knowing that it’s not going to be a boat.

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[Kong76]

I am no longer in touch with anyone in the industry or media... BUT...

The S650 was developed along side the S550. To be honest, the S650 is simply all the lightweighting and improvements the S550’s target price couldn’t support pre-2015.

The future of the Mustang will likely be based on 3 separate wheelbases. The GT350 (yes it’s coming back) and GT500 will likely be a shortened 105” wheelbase to support a REAL 2-seat design.

the base Mustang, EB, GT and Special Editions will remain on the 107” wheelbase.

The last option will support Electic and Gas 4-door and 5-door Crossover options on a 110-112” wheelbase.

The GT350 has a 3 year grace period for production Motorsport. I expect the GT350 to release with the S650 for 2022-‘23.

There is a big OHV V8 headed for the Mustang in 2022. It could be headed the Mustang XL or the 111 inch model, perhaps a HiPo version of the XL?

That’s all I have.

Big OHV V8= 6.8L ??? Would this be for a specialty Mustang only

 

[S550Boss]

I don't believe the 6.8 is a reality, only that it's the Union leader's hopes and dreams for more work in that engine plant. I'd want to see the Union's contract, which yes can sometimes reveal future plans. Whether it actually comes out in anything at all is dependent upon next Wednesday's vote... because if the Presidency changes hands then it's back to the radically increased mileage and reduced emissions, same as California and tighter, and remember that Ford already signed up for this along with several other manufacturers (GM did not). Not to start a pointless political battle here, but we are potentially at a major point of change.
And if it doesn't change hands, it's just a delay for a few years. California is moving ahead anyway, by hook or by crook, and North American manufacturers need to produce cleaner and higher mileage cars anyway just to be competitive worldwide.
We also have to be practical and realistic... the GT500 with all of it's HP is not particularly as fast 0-60 as it should be. It doesn't have the traction with only RWD - much of the power is unusable in a 0-60 test. Embarrassingly, the Mach-E GT is within 1/10th of a second to 60 with it's AWD and very high instant torque. The GT500 is also absurdly heavy, and especially nose heavy, so again so much of that power is unusable. And the a smaller degree the same thing for the Mustang GT. The unsubstantiated dream of a short wheelbase 2-seater is also absurd because the car will be even more nose-heavy. In fact it would almost be FWD-nose heavy.
The bottom line for both mileage and emissions is to take weight out of the Mustang. And this hacked up old platform whose basic structure and hard points date back to the late nineties DEW isn't going to get any lighter without some very serious aluminum structure... the CD6's type of aluminum shock/strut towers would help but would be expensive to put in this old shell... and would require extensive and expensive crash testing that S550 didn't (since it was all taken straight from S197). Is there budget for this? Budget after worldwide losses and Covid? And given the focus on super high margin and high volume new products? Look at the number of Broncos ordered, and the high proportion of options, and you will see where the big money will be spent (and more variants of the Bronco are coming... and there is worldwide interest too). Heck, there is even a Mondeo/Fusion wagon coming that will be sold worldwide in far greater volume than the Mustang. Ford will not be selling that one at a loss either and it will compete nicely with the Subaru Outback and open a whole new market space for Ford. Again, $$$ needed to get it launched next year. And the sheer number of pure electrics, with staggering development costs, and entire new platforms needed. All based on huge increases in research and development costs.
Same issue of cost for aluminum body panels... you can see that they did for the F-150 but they were expensive there and the margin in the F-150 is orbital-high compared to the Mustang. You could look at the fenders, hood and roof panel in aluminum but that would mean that the low-end versions of the Mustang are going to increase significantly in cost and the market (including internationally) depends on those for volume and overall margin. Add to that an increase in weight from electronics, leading-edge infotainment, and required additional safety structure and it's hard to believe that S650 could weigh anything less than the current one.

 

[MikeyV]

Why in the world would the 350/500 or any performance variants be on a shorter wheelbase than the GT? There well never be a two seat mustang.

Mustang XL? WTF is this, 1986 in a parallel universe?

I usually back the Pill, but this is some whack speculation.

 

[Grintch]

Am I the only one that's happy that the Mustang is going to have its own platform as apposed to sharing one with the Explorer?

Also just because it has its own platform doesn't mean it's going to gain weight. If anything, not sharing a platform with a 7 seater SUV is a good thing for weight. If you have to build your Mustang chassis on the same platform as a 2.5 ton vehicle, you're pretty much stuck with alot of unwanted weight.

I think that is the hole point. And only using elements of that platform is still a concern, as I can't think of anything in a big SUV I want in a Mustang.

 

[Grintch]

Why in the world would the 350/500 or any performance variants be on a shorter wheelbase than the GT? There well never be a two seat mustang.

Mustang XL? WTF is this, 1986 in a parallel universe?

I usually back the Pill, but this is some whack speculation.

There is a 2 seat Mustang today, and through the end of the year. Called the GT350R.

If you want a lighter Mustang, one of the easier ways to get it is a smaller Mustang. Just see some of the Original vs current GT350 photos to see how much bigger the modern car is.

 

[S550Boss]

I can't think of anything in a big SUV I want in a Mustang.

Look more closely at CD6... this unibody platform has an almost identical rear suspension to the current Mustang, a much-improved double a-arm front suspension on the Aviator, and aluminun shock towers and front structure. It was purposefully designed to be a lightweight and scalable platform from large to small, narrow to wide, from SUV to cars, from 4 to 8 cylinders, and from rear wheel drive to all wheel drive. And the engine location is better than in the S197/S550/S650 platform.
This is a win-win all around... and a shared platform versus an orphan platfrom means much more development money is available for the Mustang as well as lower production costs.
Ford has already been tremendously successful with the also all-new C2 platform. Focus, Escape, Bronco Sport and more worldwide.
But Ford in it's infinite wisdom has yt again cut the budgets, meaning the purpose of CD6 won't be fulfilled until - maybe - later in the decade, and we will get another band-aided update to the basic Mustang platform that bad been around since the late nineties.
Take another look at the advantages of sharing platforms. The Challenge is a shared platform, going back to a several generation old Mercedes, across both cars and SUVs. This is a bad example because that platform was never designed for this, only handed down to FCA from the defunct Mercedes ownership, and because of this in Challenger form is *huge* in size and weight.
A positive example is GM's Alpha program, which has yielded the CTS/ATS/CT4/CT5/Camaro. Each benefiting from reduced costs by sharing a very modern platform (a better platform than S550). and components like engines, transmission and big brakes all around. It is the only reason the Camaro can even exist, and it has enabled a Camaro that is lighter than the Mustang and in ZL1/1LE form handily out-does the GT500 on track as the tests have already shown.
Another example goes back even further, the Nissan/Infiniti FM platform, which has yielded several cars from the G35 right up to today's Q50/Q60/370Z and again in the new upcoming Z. Engine, transmission, braking all shared across the platforms, enabling products that would not have been financially possible otherwise.
This was Ford's plan with CD6... only put off because of budget. We would have had a state-of-the art product here... instead we get a band-aided and hacked up one in a year or two from now. The number of times Ford has done this to us is rediculous... we lost out on MN12 for this same reason, we had the DEW-98 hacked up to a crude product, and before that we had a Falcon-based Mustang that had the inadequate structural integrity for the power it had to support, and far less handling abaility than the 2nd gen Camaro/Firebird. Ford was now, finanaly, going to do it right... and we loose again.

 

[Norm Peterson]

There is a 2 seat Mustang today, and through the end of the year. Called the GT350R.

If you want a lighter Mustang, one of the easier ways to get it is a smaller Mustang. Just see some of the Original vs current GT350 photos to see how much bigger the modern car is.

Except in width, the S550 isn't really all that much bigger than the original. Only 1" more wheelbase, 6" or so longer, and 3.5" or so taller.

But I don't think you'd want to give up much of the 8" increase in width the S550 has over the originals, as to do so would come at some cost in track width and wheel/tire sizing. The IRS might not be too happy with the increased U-joint angular travel either. And that Coyote is a rather wide engine . . .


Norm

 

[Mikthehun1]

Except in width, the S550 isn't really all that much bigger than the original. Only 1" more wheelbase, 6" or so longer, and 3.5" or so taller.

But I don't think you'd want to give up much of the 8" increase in width the S550 has over the originals, as to do so would come at some cost in track width and wheel/tire sizing. The IRS might not be too happy with the increased U-joint angular travel either. And that Coyote is a rather wide engine . . .


Norm

Not to mention how much safety regulations have to do with vehicle size/design.

 

[tnk_2]

If it has more power and cost about the same as my gt/cs I will buy

 

[jake_zx2]

I really want to get a better look at the CD6 rear suspension setup. I keep hearing how it’s so similar to the S550, and to me, that’s not a plus. I’d much rather see the Mustang move to a coilover-based rear suspension and better LCA mounting positions. That rear end is really where the Camaro has most of its chassis advantage (aside from weight, obviously)... it’d be nice to see Ford 1-up that.

But just because CD6 has double wishbone front suspension doesn’t mean the Mustang would get it. I mean, I would LOVE for Mustang to receive that, but Ford has had it in other cars for years, from the F150 to the Fusion and even in the DEW98 platform that D2C was roughly based off of, yet Mustangs have still gotten MacPherson strut

 

[BoostRabbitGT]

The S650 was developed along side the S550. To be honest, the S650 is simply all the lightweighting and improvements the S550’s target price couldn’t support pre-2015.

The future of the Mustang will likely be based on 3 separate wheelbases. The GT350 (yes it’s coming back) and GT500 will likely be a shortened 105” wheelbase to support a REAL 2-seat design.

the base Mustang, EB, GT and Special Editions will remain on the 107” wheelbase.

The last option will support Electic and Gas 4-door and 5-door Crossover options on a 110-112” wheelbase.

The GT350 has a 3 year grace period for production Motorsport. I expect the GT350 to release with the S650 for 2022-‘23.

There is a big OHV V8 headed for the Mustang in 2022. It could be headed the Mustang XL or the 111 inch model, perhaps a HiPo version of the XL?

That’s all I have.

How'd I miss this when it was originally posted? Assuming any of this is legit, I've got a lot to think about...

"GT350/GT500...105" wheelbase." I'm guessing these models would be your truly track-ready Mustangs if they're going to make them exclusively as 2-seaters?

"Base Mustang, EB, GT, and Special Editions...107" wheelbase." Is this implying they're going to make something less powerful than the EcoBoost as the new "entry-level" Mustang? And would Special Editions be referring to packages (ala California Special) or the "may or may not be limited-run" variants (like Bullitt, Mach 1, Boss 302, etc.)? I'd think this wheelbase would keep the 2+2 seating.

"The Last Option...4-door and 5-door crossover options on a 110-112" wheelbase." To me the four-door implies sedan or grand coupe. I'd definitely consider one of those if they made it and made it well enough to be worth looking at over the "traditional" Mustang coupe. But a 5-door crossover? The Mach E rides on a 117" wheelbase...so...are they thinking of making an "Outback"/"Crosstrek" Mustang variant?

(shudders) ...a Mustback or a Crosstang?

 

[EcoVert]

Mustang isn't going to get a 6.8L engine unless one of to things happen. One the engine goes into the F150 our two it's s specialty engine for a future High Performance Mustang. Everyone needs to remember that Mustang wouldn't have a V8 now if it wasn't in the F150.

 

[BrianH87]

Mustang isn't going to get a 6.8L engine unless one of to things happen. One the engine goes into the F150 our two it's s specialty engine for a future High Performance Mustang. Everyone needs to remember that Mustang wouldn't have a V8 now if it wasn't in the F150.

Possibly... but the Coyote was actually designed for the Mustang. Then they adjusted it for the F150. And let’s not forget that ecoboost motors make up the majority of the F150 sales. I agree with you though on the 6.8. I don’t see it coming to the mustang.

 

[Mikthehun1]

Possibly... but the Coyote was actually designed for the Mustang. Then they adjusted it for the F150. And let’s not forget that ecoboost motors make up the majority of the F150 sales. I agree with you though on the 6.8. I don’t see it coming to the mustang.

TL DR, they sell a whole hell of lot more Coyote's in the the F150 than the Mustang.

The last year of concrete data I was able to find for F150 take rates was in 2017. 896,764 F150's were sold, of which "1 in 4" were Coyotes. This was actually a large decline from the previous years, mostly due to the introduction of the 3.5 Ecoboost (engine option with most torque/best fuel economy). 2017 saw 81,866 total Mustang sales, including the non-v8 models. The F150 moves almost 3X as many Coyote's as Mustang's in general, let alone v8's. I couldn't find take rates, but 2019 was another 896,526 F150's sold. With no new gas engines in the lineup since 2017, I doubt the rate of v8 sales has declined by a large margin, if at all.

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