Rpms not dropping fast enough when speed shifting

[Blake5]

haha, what happened? lol

Seriously, I understand that some/many Mustang drivers like to power shift; and I am fine with that, as that is definitely a fun way to enjoy the Mustang.

But what I have trouble figuring out is that some don't even attempt to understand the (possible) need to rev match. I am not asking everyone to rev match when driving their Mustang, but please at least understand that there are others who prefer smoothness to performance. For those, part of the fun of driving a manual car is to make the gear changes smooth (by perfectly match the rpm to the next gear) and fast.

Rev matching (when shifting up) is not a cardinal sin in Mustang last time I checked.

He obviously doesn't understand our point lol.. I started the thread and I'm now leaving it because some people just think they're always right. What you said is EXACTLY what I wanted to know, but mr conceited will always be there with his own opinion that has nothing to do with what I was asking:headbonk:

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[Horse]

Rev matching means putting the RPMs in the correct position before letting out the clutch.

Can you tell me how you force the RPMs down, say from 7000 to 4000 RPMs without simply waiting?

rev matching is when you blip the throttle on a downshift to bring the RPMs UP so that there is a smooth transition to the next lower gear.

When you are accelerating, there is no way to rev match without waiting, which means gas off, clutch in, RPMs falling......waiting.....now let the clutch out and apply gas. How is that speed shifting in any sense of the term (whether a power shift or not)?

I am not saying that you are supposed to pop the clutch out on every shift, that would just be weird. What I am saying is that every shift requires some throttle/clutch relationship modulation to switch smoothly, that is not rev matching, that is normal shifting that everyone does every time they shift......hence, driver error.

If clutch engagement is up high in the pedal throw then I can definitely see someone not getting completely off the gas by the time the clutch disconnects unless they adjust a little bit. Some cars have a high engagement point and it can feel weird if you just got out of a car with a low engagement point (and vice versa). Of course, this should take about 5 minutes to completely adapt, but whatever.

Also, coming from a cable operated clutch to a hydraulic clutch is going to feel quite a bit different.

I actually agree with what you said in this post except driver error.

The point is not if we can call OP's gear change speed shift. The point should be why the rpm drops too slow (which I think we all know the reason) and how to deal with it. In OP's words "Is anybody else having this problem or know the solution?"

I have experienced the same frustration. So, essentially, if you shift fast, then the rpm won't match (or, to match the rpm, you have to wait), which is frustrating if your goal is to match the rpm and do it fast. And you have described this very well up in your post. (And I agree it is impossible to match rpm and shift fast with stock S550.)

So, what is a solution? Does it exist?

So what I have been saying is that the reason for slow rpm dropping is due to factory dialed-in rev hang (and possibly heavy flywheel), and (possibly) a solution to eliminate the issue could exist (even if the solution only exists in theory).

Unleashed Tuning seemed to have a way to reduce the rev hang. Someone had tried it and reported back positively. Also, in theory at least, one can also make the flywheel light enough for the fastest shifter. This way, one can indeed shift fast (with gas lift) and still matching the rpm perfectly. Solved!

So I would not call it driver error. If anything, it is only that the driver trying to ask the car to adjust to the driver rather than the other way around.

Again, I understand that most would just power shift and never mind rpm matching. But for those (maybe minority) who pursue perfect rpm matching (even at the cost of performance), they would like to find a way to accomplish that (or just wonder if solution exists or not, even in theory).

 

[Higgs Boson]

He obviously doesn't understand our point lol.. I started the thread and I'm now leaving it because some people just think they're always right. What you said is EXACTLY what I wanted to know, but mr conceited will always be there with his own opinion that has nothing to do with what I was asking:headbonk:

I just don't think we are all talking about the same thing. If you think you rev match while upshifting, you don't. If you think you rev match while speed shifting, you don't.

If there is this kind of discrepancy in terminology, how can you really expect to communicate? I asked you to post a video, this is 2016 it shouldn't be difficult, so we could get on the same page and I could help you.

This is precisely what happens when everybody gets a trophy growing up, even when they lose. They just can't take it. We are raising a generation of weak. What a shame.

 

[Horse]

He obviously doesn't understand our point lol.. I started the thread and I'm now leaving it because some people just think they're always right. What you said is EXACTLY what I wanted to know, but mr conceited will always be there with his own opinion that has nothing to do with what I was asking:headbonk:

I experienced the same frustration as you due to rpm dropping too slow :cheers:

 

[Higgs Boson]

I actually agree with what you said in this post except driver error.

The point is not if we can call OP's gear change speed shift. The point should be why the rpm drops too slow (which I think we all know the reason) and how to deal with it. In OP's words "Is anybody else having this problem or know the solution?"

I have experienced the same frustration. So, essentially, if you shift fast, then the rpm won't match (or, to match the rpm, you have to wait), which is frustrating if your goal is to match the rpm and do it fast. And you have described this very well up in your post. (And I agree it is impossible to match rpm and shift fast with stock S550.)

So, what is a solution? Does it exist?

So what I have been saying is that the reason for slow rpm dropping is due to factory dialed-in rev hang (and possibly heavy flywheel), and (possibly) a solution to eliminate the issue (even if the solution only exists in theory).

Unleashed Tuning seemed to have a way to reduce the rev hang. Someone had tried it and reported back positively. Also, in theory at least, one can also make the flywheel light enough for the fastest shifter. This way, one can indeed shift fast (with gas lift) and still matching the rpm perfectly. Solved!

So I would not call it driver error. If anything, it is only that the driver trying to ask the car to adjust to the driver rather than the other way around.

Again, I understand that most would just power shift and never mind rpm matching. But for those (maybe minority) who pursue perfect rpm matching (even at the cost of performance), they would like to find a way to accomplish that (or just wonder if solution exists or not, even in theory).

The remaining discrepancy here is what you are describing are part throttle normal driving and shifting conditions, such as 30% pedal up to 2500 and upshifting to the next gear. In this case, I completely agree that a slow falling RPM is annoying (but so is a very rapidly falling RPM).

So the OP, however, is describing his situation as happening at wide open throttle, in which case the entire rev hang topic is moot, which I am sure you would agree with. No one should be power shifting at part throttle medium RPMs.

What further exacerbates the OPs issue is the steep first gear on cars today amplifying the steep transitions to second gear.

The reason I am saying driver error is because all of this can be easily managed by simply working the gas and clutch properly, which is not the same thing as saying every car drives exactly the same way.

No one wants to hear its driver error when they want to complain about the product they are using, but sometimes it is user error. I mean, we can't all be pro mod drivers, of course.

 

[Horse]

The remaining discrepancy here is what you are describing are part throttle normal driving and shifting conditions, such as 30% pedal up to 2500 and upshifting to the next gear. In this case, I completely agree that a slow falling RPM is annoying (but so is a very rapidly falling RPM).

So the OP, however, is describing his situation as happening at wide open throttle, in which case the entire rev hang topic is moot, which I am sure you would agree with. No one should be power shifting at part throttle medium RPMs.

What further exacerbates the OPs issue is the steep first gear on cars today amplifying the steep transitions to second gear.

The reason I am saying driver error is because all of this can be easily managed by simply working the gas and clutch properly, which is not the same thing as saying every car drives exactly the same way.

No one wants to hear its driver error when they want to complain about the product they are using, but sometimes it is user error. I mean, we can't all be pro mod drivers, of course.

I am not just describing for the partial throttle situation, at least I would think that slow rpm dropping happens across the rpm range. (Well, to be honest, I will say that I don't rev to red line or WOT very often. My car has just passed 1600 miles and I am still babying it.) When I do shift at wot (just below) red line, the rpm still drops too slow (in the sense that I have to wait for like 2 seconds (well, maybe just 1 second) before the rpm drops to the right value for the next gear up.

And, when I lift gas for upshift, I always lift the gas pedal completely. But the rpm still drops too slow.

I agree that 1-2 shift is more difficult than other shifts, as the rpm needs to drop more for 1-2 shift.

But why we can not talk about rpm matching when shifting up at red line or wot? Or why it is a moot point? Let us know.

For those who enjoy the game of matching rpm for the next gear, any time/situation should be an opportunity for perfecting the skill.

Or are you saying that, at WOT, the rpm will drop very fast (fast enough to the right value in time for the fast shifter)? Let me know.

Some say that, with more miles on the car, the rpm will drop faster. Hope this is true. Anyone likes to confirm this?

 

[Blake5]

I just don't think we are all talking about the same thing. If you think you rev match while upshifting, you don't. If you think you rev match while speed shifting, you don't.

If there is this kind of discrepancy in terminology, how can you really expect to communicate? I asked you to post a video, this is 2016 it shouldn't be difficult, so we could get on the same page and I could help you.

This is precisely what happens when everybody gets a trophy growing up, even when they lose. They just can't take it. We are raising a generation of weak. What a shame.

Exactly, we aren't talking about the same thing. I obviously stated it well as Horse easily picked up on what I was talking about. You just sat there and beat a dead horse when I told you what you were talking about wasn't what I was referring to, but you think what you want mr pro

 

[Higgs Boson]

Exactly, we aren't talking about the same thing. I obviously stated it well as Horse easily picked up on what I was talking about. You just sat there and beat a dead horse when I told you what you were talking about wasn't what I was referring to, but you think what you want mr pro

good for horse, he can speak retard, i can't. he's probably a better person than me, too, but I really don't care about that.

 

[Higgs Boson]

I am not just describing for the partial throttle situation, at least I would think that slow rpm dropping happens across the rpm range. (Well, to be honest, I will say that I don't rev to red line or WOT very often. My car has just passed 1600 miles and I am still babying it.) When I do shift at wot (just below) red line, the rpm still drops too slow (in the sense that I have to wait for like 2 seconds (well, maybe just 1 second) before the rpm drops to the right value for the next gear up.

And, when I lift gas for upshift, I always lift the gas pedal completely. But the rpm still drops too slow.

I agree that 1-2 shift is more difficult than other shifts, as the rpm needs to drop more for 1-2 shift.

But why we can not talk about rpm matching when shifting up at red line or wot? Or why it is a moot point? Let us know.

For those who enjoy the game of matching rpm for the next gear, any time/situation should be an opportunity for perfecting the skill.

Or are you saying that, at WOT, the rpm will drop very fast (fast enough to the right value in time for the fast shifter)? Let me know.

Some say that, with more miles on the car, the rpm will drop faster. Hope this is true. Anyone likes to confirm this?

What I am saying is, why would you be WOT or heavy throttle in the first place if you are just going to let off and wait for RPMs to drop to the next gear's RPM level? Why don't you shift and let the clutch out while giving it gas at the same time? Did you watch the video posted earlier?

Let's say you shift at 7000 at WOT, you are saying that you rev match, want to let the RPMs drop so it will match revs for the next gear, this is going to be around 4000 RPMs. Rev Matching means you are letting the revs drop 3000 RPMs, which would take an eternity.

Try this, run the car up to 6000 or whatever RPMs and just let off the throttle, put the clutch in and let the RPMs drop down to around 3000 and watch the time it takes for them to drop.

Next, run the RPMs up to 6000 gas off, clutch in, shift to the next gear, and let the clutch out quickly. Pay attention to what happens to the RPMs.

Next, run up to 6000, clutch in, shift, clutch out and ease onto the gas at the same time to smooth into the next gear and continue accelerating.

My point is, letting the clutch out takes any rev hang out of the equation. Use the throttle to maintain a bit of revs as the clutch application brings the RPMs down.

 

[Horse]

What I am saying is, why would you be WOT or heavy throttle in the first place if you are just going to let off and wait for RPMs to drop to the next gear's RPM level? Why don't you shift and let the clutch out while giving it gas at the same time? Did you watch the video posted earlier?

Let's say you shift at 7000 at WOT, you are saying that you rev match, want to let the RPMs drop so it will match revs for the next gear, this is going to be around 4000 RPMs. Rev Matching means you are letting the revs drop 3000 RPMs, which would take an eternity.

Try this, run the car up to 6000 or whatever RPMs and just let off the throttle, put the clutch in and let the RPMs drop down to around 3000 and watch the time it takes for them to drop.

Next, run the RPMs up to 6000 gas off, clutch in, shift to the next gear, and let the clutch out quickly. Pay attention to what happens to the RPMs.

Next, run up to 6000, clutch in, shift, clutch out and ease onto the gas at the same time to smooth into the next gear and continue accelerating.

My point is, letting the clutch out takes any rev hang out of the equation. Use the throttle to maintain a bit of revs as the clutch application brings the RPMs down.

We all know that it takes long for the rpm to drop from red line to say 4500 rpm in S550. What's why the OP was asking for (possible) solutions.

We all know that one can use the car itself to slow/drag down the engine rpm (even do this somehow smoothly by modulating the clutch pedal). The OP stated clearly that he does not want to slip the clutch. In fact, to those who seek perfect rpm match, anything less is just not perfect.

You have your way of driving your Mustang, no problem. But please also understand/see some other drivers' pursuit of rpm matching (at 3000 rpm or 6700 rpm).

If there is no solution (to slow rpm dropping), then just tell us so and we will call it a day. If there are solutions, let us know and we will appreciate it.

But instead, you have been hinting that rpm match (at red line or whatever) is pointless. You may not use it (so pointless to you, sure); but it is not pointless to everyone.

Why rpm matching at red line? For the `art' of perfect rpm matching (plus better to the powertrain, etc.) so to speak Well I could have asked you why you powershift b/c it hurts the powertrain, to which you might answer that it is for extracting every ounce of power from the engine (or whatever answer you would like to give). Both have their reasons for doing what they do. Just make an effort to understand each other.

 

[Higgs Boson]

We all know that it takes long for the rpm to drop from red line to say 4500 rpm in S550. What's why the OP was asking for (possible) solutions.

We all know that one can use the car itself to slow/drag down the engine rpm (even do this somehow smoothly by modulating the clutch pedal). The OP stated clearly that he does not want to slip the clutch. In fact, to those who seek perfect rpm match, anything less is just not perfect.

You have your way of driving your Mustang, no problem. But please also understand/see some other drivers' pursuit of rpm matching (at 3000 rpm or 6700 rpm).

If there is no solution (to slow rpm dropping), then just tell us so and we will call it a day. If there are solutions, let us know and we will appreciate it.

But instead, you have been hinting that rpm match (at red line or whatever) is pointless. You may not use it (so pointless to you, sure); but it is not pointless to everyone.

Why rpm matching at red line? For the `art' of perfect rpm matching (plus better to the powertrain, etc.) so to speak Well I could have asked you why you powershift b/c it hurts the powertrain, to which you might answer that it is for extracting every ounce of power from the engine (or whatever answer you would like to give). Both have their reasons for doing what they do. Just make an effort to understand each other.

So what you are saying is, there is a desire to accelerate up to 7000 and then let the RPMs drop to 4000-4500 before letting the clutch out in the next gear and the length of time it takes for the RPMs to drop is a problem?





I am not saying that "RPM Match" at redline is pointless.....I am saying it does not exist at all in any way shape of form no matter what you guys think you are doing, it is impossible to rev match on an upshift, especially at redline.

I have not been talking about power shifting for a long time, not sure why you keep bringing it up....?

Why go wide open throttle just to let off for a matter of seconds and then (I presume) return to wide open throttle?? I mean, I guess if you are just Horse'ing around then one could technically do whatever they want.....

And just for Blake, letting the clutch out while the RPMs are higher than the next gear drop is not "slipping the clutch" any kind of meaningful amount. I am not sure if you think you are going to hurt something or wear out the clutch, but you're not going to hurt it driving normally. Just let the clutch out and go into the next gear. You slip your clutch FAR more during any take off from a standstill than you ever will doing a simple upshift (unless you are just letting the clutch out very slowly every time while revving up the gas).

 

[Higgs Boson]

:cheers: Ford designed it that way purposely and this is the very first time I have ever heard of any issue with rpm problems. I can power shift smoothly and you would never feel any kind of herky jerky or being hard on the transmission. The trans is designed to take power shifting every day if you like. The synchronizers are not like the 2011-2014 there is still a double clutch the 6 -speed is fully ball bearing and the sinks are the best there is. They use the very trans in 1000 plus NHRA Cobra Jet mustangs that run 8 second quarter mile times. You would break half shafts many times and never break a transmission the main shafts are forged from a block of billet steel harden and Manu flexed for cracks and any stress risers and sharp edges are smoothed out the gears are all carbon fiber and heat treaded to 500 degrees siliceous. Even the ball bearings and sockets they ride in are hardened to 5138 sems standard. The transmission billet aluminum case has huge braces and bulk heads to support said amount and more hp. Ok the reason the rpms stay is so there is no herky jerky in the shifts and the gearing in both the rear set and the transmission are geared spot on to deliver maximum performance in the power band. Forget about the rpm stay and drop crape and drive the shit out of it and be happy with the GT. Nuff said.

They do not use this transmission in any Cobra Jets.
https://www.fordracingparts.com/cobrajet/

They used a Tremec in 2008 otherwise they are all automatics (as far as I can tell, do you have a link showing the MT-82 in a CobraJet?). The MT-82 is made by Getrag and China.

 

[Higgs Boson]

Also, there are several places in the tune where you can increase engine braking/engine decel however, it won't help all that much. You will need lighter parts from the valves to the pistons, rods, crank, and flywheel not to mention a shorter stroke and freer flowing intake/exhaust, etc. The faster you can get the engine accel to turn into decel the faster you can get it to rev down.....but be careful what you wish for, fast decel will create a much more jerky shifting process than a little rpm float.

 

[Higgs Boson]

Your not letting them drop that is where they will be at the 7000 rpm limit.

That's my point.....

That is where they are regardless when you shift for a reason I will say it again ford purposely built that in the trans just for smooth clutch engagement the gearing that is and the computer has the stay rpm not to much rpm when shift but right in the sweet spot if you will. No matter if you shift at 2500 rpm or 3800 rpm designed for smooth shifting nuff said.

yes, there is a programmed rev hang near the next gear's drop point during part throttle slow shift driving, we covered that months ago in another thread. however, OP said he is speed shifting and WOT, there is no rev hang/rev match/whatever if you are rowing the gears full tilt.....which is what started this whole circus side show.

 

[Higgs Boson]

Yes most all use the three speed automatic and the 2-speed power glide transmission. And yes some have used a three speed standard everyday bone stock S550 performance pack shifter and transmission. But with such steep gears they run the transmission as a three speed with out the over drives but 2nd and 3rd and 4th which is a one to one gear. Why a stick and manual clutch because you can only get a trans break and converter to stall at 6500 rpm max. Where on a good sticking track where you can lay as much rpm as you wish to launch. These coyote engines are turning in excess of 10,000 rpm or more at the big end. With the stick they can rev to 8500 rpm and launch and there 60ft. time is .96 to .98 with the stick. The stage rpm red line can be set like you want but after the light turns green the primary rev limiter cancels and the high rpm rev limiter kicks as a two stage system depending on the track and conditions. Though you cannot out shift an automatic with a stick never happen. Still hard headed and don't believe it go to NHRA recap on the 2014 -15 races with the Copo Camaro's and Dodges. When you come back with egg on your face just remember I told you so Smile.

buddy, i run nhra and ihra super stock already for 21 years.....stick cars always lose (unless one gets lucky once every 10 years) so you aren't really saying much of anything here.....not one word has proven anything about your comment that CJ's use the MT-82 transmission.

by the way, enough typing as a stream of thoughts, seriously, if you want people to read your posts then use punctuation and paragraphs.

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