Platform images

[mister.peabodyjunior]

I believe he meant shared parts between the platform structures themselves; things like A-pillars, floor pans, engine compartment bracing, transmission crossmembers.

What he said. Components like multifunction switches, or the module that controls the stalks on the steering column, batteries, etc have to be common. You can't tool a new battery for every vehicle, otherwise you just throw money away. There must be communization to some extent.

When I say heavily modified, think of it like using S197 as a starting point. Vehicles are not like cell phones where safety doesn't matter. Remember, safety is priority one. It's extremely expensive to rerun crash testing on a new platform with no baseline.

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[JohnZiraldo]

When I say heavily modified, think of it like using S197 as a starting point.

Hopefully this is a question that Mr.Peabody can respond to without giving up any classified information.

Knowing what you do about the S550, are there reasons to be optimistic that it will be capable of utilizing all of the performance engines necessary to be competitive with whatever the competition is likely to bring?

 

[Beastie]

Remember, safety is priority one. It's extremely expensive to rerun crash testing on a new platform with no baseline.

Call me ignorant but really I never knew safety was priority one for a pony car. The whole idea of fitting that much power into a small package comes with costs (safety being one of them) and I think people assume the risk. Are they really designing Mustangs with safety as priority #1 instead of performance? That would be hugely disappointing to hear.

I understand your point about crash testing being expensive without a baseline but thought that's what new platform development was all about.... you have that big budget to pay for stuff like this. It's no different than previous generations.... altho yes, sales are worse now and there was some carryover from other platforms (DEW98 Lite etc). I also have to believe the now pretty archaic D2C platform could benefit from 10 years of advances in crash testing design, engineering and technology.

All this to say --is starting with the S197 as the baseline for safety testing (and as a result engineering, design, etc) really the best way?

 

[boomer78]

Very heavily modified.

More of a FrankenPlatform?

Would it be safe to say that it's so heavily modified and borrowed from various other platforms that it is a new platform with it's own designation (like D2C)?

 

[jjw]

Call me ignorant but really I never knew safety was priority one for a pony car.

It is because the Gov't says so.
Gov't mandates standards for all cars.

 

[S550Boss]

Very heavily modified.

Simplified process flow: imagine you are sitting in front of a large monitor. As the engineer, you begin your S550 work by starting your CAD/CAM tool, opening the file for the S197, and taking it forward from there as a starting point.
First you look at the requirements you have to meet (which will be documented to you in detail): ability to mount the new IRS (so you rework the rear unibody to create attachment points, then rework the exhaust system, and in doing that you decide you can make a slight rework to the fuel tank), requirement to have both right- and left-hand drive (make changes to enable having two different firewalls), requirements to mount the air vanes in the grill (take existing grill, add mounting tabs, note crash simulation - there are known requirements here from other cars that use them), different front, offset, or side impact laws (extensive modelling and simulation), requirements for mounting new engines and transmissions (using dimensions, design new mounts and adjust tunnel size accordingly, simulate weights, crash, and airflow), requirement to reduce length (total redesign of trunk to shorten it significantly, corresponding rework of exhaust, fuel filler, wiring harnesses, decision whether to accommodate a spare tire or not, crash simulation, etc.).
Then dimensional changes from the stylists (such as the 1.75" higher window sill. The body is essentially similar to the S197, so this is the easy part. So easy that the S550 front end is practically a bolt-up to the S197 structure).
And there are routines to look at structural forces, weights of components (there are routines to examine each component such as a particular bolt, determine the requirements for it's strength, adjust the design accordingly - go thru the design over and over until, say for example, 2000 grams are taken out of the front subframe and point-by-point across each component), simulated aerodynamics (working with the stylists to make adjustments where needed), simulated airflow/cooling (placement of components in the engine compartment). BTW, Ford did an extensive bit of gram strategy in the FOX chassis, as reported to the press when it was launched for Fall of 1978 - so this isn't new to them, although t hey have forgotten that many times over the years.
Plus you look at the service history of the existing car (suggesting weak points), any crash work that was done after the last design (perhaps suggesting that something like seat breakaway could be better, or bumper design could be improved from a service standpoint), etc. And there is another team working in parallel on the service considerations for the existing engine and transmission (which will hopefully replace the miserable MT82 - *if* there is budget and a financial case study to do so. As well as an engineering requirement - since it doesn't have a torque rating to support the current Coyote, it certainly won't be able to support a DI Coyote - for example).
Now the final design is coming together, so you start simulating things like the noise the DI pump will make and compensating for that (there are very noisy). Better to find it now than when the first prototypes have been built. And you build and test S197s with S550 components and discover more issues in this area (as we've seen, a front end for cooling and airflow, and an entire suspension fr/rr - that was done last year) and then make further adjustments.
Now you are ready to have actual S550 prototypes built. And these are done in multiple stages, at various places, and for multiple purposes. There is an extensive schedule here too, very dependent upon getting it right up front in the software phases. Counting pre-production prototypes built in the last phases, there will be hundreds of these potentially in some programs - although these are very very expensive and the process is trying to optimize these to the minimum. And at some point (if it hasn't happened already in small quantities), these will be rolling down the existing production line (noting the impact to the production schedule).

Side note: If you haven't seen an assembly line in action, you owe it to yourself. But there are very few that you can get into. If you live near one, very occasionally there is a friends and family day or something similar. One thing to try to find is the Megafactories - Ford Mustang video which you'll find helpful (note the Mazda6 going down the same overall line - and it had zero in common with the Mustang).
---
This whole post is ultra simplified, and there is far more to it than this, and far more people and groups involved. There is a designated process, there is a defined timeline, milestones, etc. It is very highly refined, and refined again, to be far more science than art.

But the point is that the S197 design was clearly the starting point. There doesn't have to be identical part numbers but there was a starting point for the evolution from the S197. And the S550 reflects that in an identical wheelbase, front track, hard points, and much more.

Just look at the silhouette of the S550, it's all but identical. If something else was used (such as the Fusion, which is 100% different due to it's transverse design - and every single other point ties into that), or a clean sheet, it'd end up very different from the S197 in so many ways (and would have been far more expensive to bring to market). But it isn't, and that's more than suspicious, it's obvious.

 

[Overboost]

You don't get it. Running a blog doesn't give you some magical knowledge of the inner workings.

There are multiple examples that OEM's use a similar overall shape, but heavily rework the frame/chassis of a vehicle. See the upcoming Cruze and 2013 Ram as some examples. You don't have to go in a radically new direction to improve the car on a fundamental level. While it may look like S197, when the details come out, you might find it surprising where the developments came from.

 

[JohnZiraldo]

.....
Are they really designing Mustangs with safety as priority #1 instead of performance? That would be hugely disappointing to hear.
.....

I don't know if it would be #1 or not, but volume has to be up there in the single digits...which means worldwide sales...which means Europe....which means greater safety standards.

 

[nametoshowothers]

Simplified process flow: imagine you are sitting in front of a large monitor. As the engineer, you begin your S550 work by starting your CAD/CAM tool, opening the file for the S197, and taking it forward from there as a starting point.
First you look at the requirements you have to meet (which will be documented to you in detail): ability to mount the new IRS (so you rework the rear unibody to create attachment points, then rework the exhaust system, and in doing that you decide you can make a slight rework to the fuel tank), requirement to have both right- and left-hand drive (make changes to enable having two different firewalls), requirements to mount the air vanes in the grill (take existing grill, add mounting tabs, note crash simulation - there are known requirements here from other cars that use them), different front, offset, or side impact laws (extensive modelling and simulation), requirements for mounting new engines and transmissions (using dimensions, design new mounts and adjust tunnel size accordingly, simulate weights, crash, and airflow), requirement to reduce length (total redesign of trunk to shorten it significantly, corresponding rework of exhaust, fuel filler, wiring harnesses, decision whether to accommodate a spare tire or not, crash simulation, etc.).
Then dimensional changes from the stylists (such as the 1.75" higher window sill. The body is essentially similar to the S197, so this is the easy part. So easy that the S550 front end is practically a bolt-up to the S197 structure).
And there are routines to look at structural forces, weights of components (there are routines to examine each component such as a particular bolt, determine the requirements for it's strength, adjust the design accordingly - go thru the design over and over until, say for example, 2000 grams are taken out of the front subframe and point-by-point across each component), simulated aerodynamics (working with the stylists to make adjustments where needed), simulated airflow/cooling (placement of components in the engine compartment). BTW, Ford did an extensive bit of gram strategy in the FOX chassis, as reported to the press when it was launched for Fall of 1978 - so this isn't new to them, although t hey have forgotten that many times over the years.
Plus you look at the service history of the existing car (suggesting weak points), any crash work that was done after the last design (perhaps suggesting that something like seat breakaway could be better, or bumper design could be improved from a service standpoint), etc. And there is another team working in parallel on the service considerations for the existing engine and transmission (which will hopefully replace the miserable MT82 - *if* there is budget and a financial case study to do so. As well as an engineering requirement - since it doesn't have a torque rating to support the current Coyote, it certainly won't be able to support a DI Coyote - for example).
Now the final design is coming together, so you start simulating things like the noise the DI pump will make and compensating for that (there are very noisy). Better to find it now than when the first prototypes have been built. And you build and test S197s with S550 components and discover more issues in this area (as we've seen, a front end for cooling and airflow, and an entire suspension fr/rr - that was done last year) and then make further adjustments.
Now you are ready to have actual S550 prototypes built. And these are done in multiple stages, at various places, and for multiple purposes. There is an extensive schedule here too, very dependent upon getting it right up front in the software phases. Counting pre-production prototypes built in the last phases, there will be hundreds of these potentially in some programs - although these are very very expensive and the process is trying to optimize these to the minimum. And at some point (if it hasn't happened already in small quantities), these will be rolling down the existing production line (noting the impact to the production schedule).

Side note: If you haven't seen an assembly line in action, you owe it to yourself. But there are very few that you can get into. If you live near one, very occasionally there is a friends and family day or something similar. One thing to try to find is the Megafactories - Ford Mustang video which you'll find helpful (note the Mazda6 going down the same overall line - and it had zero in common with the Mustang).
---
This whole post is ultra simplified, and there is far more to it than this, and far more people and groups involved. There is a designated process, there is a defined timeline, milestones, etc. It is very highly refined, and refined again, to be far more science than art.

But the point is that the S197 design was clearly the starting point. There doesn't have to be identical part numbers but there was a starting point for the evolution from the S197. And the S550 reflects that in an identical wheelbase, front track, hard points, and much more.

Just look at the silhouette of the S550, it's all but identical. If something else was used (such as the Fusion, which is 100% different due to it's transverse design - and every single other point ties into that), or a clean sheet, it'd end up very different from the S197 in so many ways (and would have been far more expensive to bring to market). But it isn't, and that's more than suspicious, it's obvious.

The starting point is the 64.5 mustang














Oh wAit it is the falcon





No it's the model a ---- it has 4 wheels and two doors

 

[Red]

Overboost and S550Boss: I don't understand what you're arguing over. From your last two posts, you're saying the same things, imo.

I'm in the aircraft industry, sort of, and S550's description of the general, overall engineering process going from one model to its successor is essentially correct (if very simplified, which S550 readily admits).

Also, safety really has to be priority #1 (sure as hell is in commercial and general aircraft aircraft - not necessarily quite so much in DoD, for obvious reasons). Can you imagine what would happen to Ford (or any other auto maker) if people starting dying or being injured due to safety 'issues', real or perceived, with any of its vehicles? Christ, they'd be instantly tits-up in today's society.

My two cents. I generally appreciate insights/posts of both OB and S550; the bickering has me lost.

On edit: I meant to mention: A well-known joke in aerospace is something along the lines of the Boeing 747 (or pick any current AC -- JSF, etc) being essentially the Wright Flyer. Yeah, both fly under their own power, but... Progress is progress and almost always is based on previous efforts. 'Clean sheet', 'totally new', 'revolutionary', 'evolutionary', .... who cares? Just words, imo. It's all progress. Let's see what Ford delivers before getting all wrapped around the axle on subjective words.

 

[JohnZiraldo]

...... 'Clean sheet', 'totally new', 'revolutionary', 'evolutionary', .... who cares? Just words, imo. It's all progress. Let's see what Ford delivers before getting all wrapped around the axle on subjective words.

Bingo!:first:

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