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No manual transmission, only 7 speed DCT?

MaskedRacerX

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That's the thing - DCTs seem to be very good in a track environment. Less so in mild to moderate street driving.

Plus, it'll still feel like an automatic when you pull away from a full stop.
Have you driven a modern implementation, like in any reasonably current Porsche with PDK? It's smooth in all modes, and there's no torque converter type feeling at all, it really feels like a manual with only 2 pedals.
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Norm Peterson

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Not all that long ago I got to drive a Turbo S in sort of an autocross setting. Not sure what year the car was, or what it had for a transmission, except that it wasn't a 3-pedal manual. Pulling away at the start, it was all AT in feel. I didn't get to try a second launch to see if how hard/fast I got on the throttle might have affected this.

There continue to be complaints about shift quality with DSGs in street driving. Maybe it's only certain situations such as under drop-throttle (when conventional automatics can also be a bit harsh).

And it didn't take long to find this, from a description of how the PDK (specifically this transmission) operates (emphasis mine). Linky.
The driver can control shifts via buttons or paddles on the steering wheel or with the shift lever. There is also a fully automatic mode, with the normal shift setting oriented towards smooth shifting and optimum fuel economy. When moving the vehicle from rest, the #1 (outer) clutch pack engagement is programmed to mimic the slippage of a torque converter when moving from rest, and it almost succeeds at this. Porsche considers the PDK good enough in this regard to offer it as the exclusive transmission available in the Panamera luxury/sports sedan (with the exception of exceedingly rare manual 6-cylinder models, and the Tiptronic-equipped Hybrid) and in the Macan SUV.
On the matter of "almost succeeds", this has to be something that some drivers will notice more than others. Those who drive MT cars exclusively (or nearly so) are probably going to see it fully succeeding in simulating the feel of a conventional AT. Those who usually drive automatics won't notice the feel being much different from some/most of the cars they do drive.

Personally, I'm fully expecting to modulate my starts using both feet. When only one foot does it all, the throttle and clutch applications are linked together differently than I do with those actions kept entirely separate. From here, I can't see where you would not notice the differences To put this in better perspective, I haven't owned an AT vehicle in over 45 years, or in that time driven them with any regularity whatsoever (except for about a year as a dealership shuttle driver back around 2003).


Norm
 

Epiphany

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I am going to guess, stick shift trans at about $85K and the auto upgrade will cost about an additional $20K.

:)
If Ford only sells 5,000 GT500 units (for example) a 50/50 mix would mean 2,500 manuals and 2,500 DCT's. Those are horrible numbers for both transmissions and point to the reason Ford has put all their eggs in one transmission basket for the GT350, the previous generation GT500, the Termi all the way back to the best Fox offerings. The economies of scale just aren't there for that small of a run of DCT's OR that small of a run of a manual transmission in the upcoming GT500. Furthermore, Ford would seem to have abandoned the TR6060 for good. The TR3160 can't take the power at the levels being talked about. TR6070 (seven speed)? I don't see that either.

Ford is very likely to offer the GT500 with one transmission only. And they need the numbers in terms of production to make it viable, just as they have done in years past.
 

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If they only sell one transmission, like they have forever with the halo cars, i agree it should be the best performing. And that's going to be the dtc. I love manuals by the way, but i agree with that decision if it is made.

Like E said ^^
 

MaskedRacerX

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If Ford only sells 5,000 GT500 units (for example) a 50/50 mix would mean 2,500 manuals and 2,500 DCT's. Those are horrible numbers for both transmissions and point to the reason Ford has put all their eggs in one transmission basket for the GT350, the previous generation GT500, the Termi all the way back to the best Fox offerings. The economies of scale just aren't there for that small of a run of DCT's OR that small of a run of a manual transmission in the upcoming GT500. Furthermore, Ford would seem to have abandoned the TR6060 for good. The TR3160 can't take the power at the levels being talked about. TR6070 (seven speed)? I don't see that either.

Ford is very likely to offer the GT500 with one transmission only. And they need the numbers in terms of production to make it viable, just as they have done in years past.
Plus, outside of production/supplychain/costs, it provides a single marketing narrative, and a unique differentiator (vs. the Hellcat(s), ZL1/Z06 Vette), I can see them going all in on talking up the advantages of the DCT, how it's derived from their $400K supercar, etc. The cost will be diluted into the whole model run too, otherwise you might actually get a price difference between manual and DCT that's a hard sell, if the DCT is done right, that's what they want to put into the hands of buyers (and not expose the manual to magazine racing comparisons ...)
 

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MaskedRacerX

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Not all that long ago I got to drive a Turbo S in sort of an autocross setting. Not sure what year the car was, or what it had for a transmission, except that it wasn't a 3-pedal manual. Pulling away at the start, it was all AT in feel. I didn't get to try a second launch to see if how hard/fast I got on the throttle might have affected this.

There continue to be complaints about shift quality with DSGs in street driving. Maybe it's only certain situations such as under drop-throttle (when conventional automatics can also be a bit harsh).

And it didn't take long to find this, from a description of how the PDK (specifically this transmission) operates (emphasis mine). Linky.

On the matter of "almost succeeds", this has to be something that some drivers will notice more than others. Those who drive MT cars exclusively (or nearly so) are probably going to see it fully succeeding in simulating the feel of a conventional AT. Those who usually drive automatics won't notice the feel being much different from some/most of the cars they do drive.

Personally, I'm fully expecting to modulate my starts using both feet. When only one foot does it all, the throttle and clutch applications are linked together differently than I do with those actions kept entirely separate. From here, I can't see where you would not notice the differences To put this in better perspective, I haven't owned an AT vehicle in over 45 years, or in that time driven them with any regularity whatsoever (except for about a year as a dealership shuttle driver back around 2003).
FWIW, I wouldn't mention DSG in the same conversation as more current options like the M/DCT or PDK, it's a bit clunky. I have a pretty good amount of wheel time in manuals (I even currently drive a GT convertible with a hard-to-source manual), let's call it the majority of over 35 years of drive time, (including 100s of hours of track time :)), and I can tell you from my first hand experience, with [very modern] BMW, Porsche, the Nissan GT-R, that the DCT does not have an AT feel, even though - and I suspect that's due in part to the psychological impact of the missing 3rd pedal - I'd say it's not quite parity with the experience of a traditional manual.
 

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personally, if I were to get this gt500, with over 700 hp, I'm glad it will be dct only. with that much power i just want to concentrate on putting it down.
I bet it will still be exhilarating. now, of course I always need to have at least one manual.
 

Norm Peterson

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FWIW, I wouldn't mention DSG in the same conversation as more current options like the M/DCT or PDK, it's a bit clunky.
You'll have to excuse some inaccuracies in what I'm calling these things - they're all 2-pedal devices. But the description I found specifically for the PDK says in no uncertain terms that Porsche has gone to considerable effort to make the PDK drive like a conventional automatic. Obviously so that they can bring those with automatic-only driving in their background into their showroom.


I have a pretty good amount of wheel time in manuals (I even currently drive a GT convertible with a hard-to-source manual), let's call it the majority of over 35 years of drive time, (including 100s of hours of track time :)), and I can tell you from my first hand experience, with [very modern] BMW, Porsche, the Nissan GT-R, that the DCT does not have an AT feel, even though - and I suspect that's due in part to the psychological impact of the missing 3rd pedal - I'd say it's not quite parity with the experience of a traditional manual.
No flame intended, not even a little, but this does mean that you also have a pretty good amount of wheel time with automatics. Perhaps even a CVT here and there. Any more, I get zero-point-zero seat time with automatics. I just don't drive them at all, so I've got no "adapting" to 2-pedal driving going on in the background like most drivers who still keep a conventional MT car in their stable do. None.

That's why I can accept that you probably aren't feeling much AT in the PDK or other clutch pedal-less transmission, while knowing for sure that I would. If it matters, I think I'd manage to adapt in a track-only environment but not in day to day street driving.


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

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machsmith - At the 700 HP level, I still think I'd want to have the option of "both feet in", and on the street I wouldn't be driving it much different than the way I drive the cars I have now.


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machsmith - At the 700 HP level, I still think I'd want to have the option of "both feet in", and on the street I wouldn't be driving it much different than the way I drive the cars I have now.
Norm
I cant help but think of the crappy manual that was in the last gt500. heavy, high travel engagement, 1st to 2nd lock out... it was a piece of crap IMO. No thanks to that again. Sure, you could mod it to make it better, but off the shelf, it was junk.
Hopefully no quirks with the DCT, but if there isnt, I'll be happy with it, as I'm sure it will shift faster than I ever could. When I want to run some gears I'll jump into a car or cycle with a manual.
 

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The TR6060 is/was an extremely robust transmission capable of handling extreme amounts of horsepower and torque. It simply didn't like fast shifts in stock format at high rpm though. GM has refined it further than Ford did and I credit them for making it work well in the ZL1/1LE. That said, if Ford and Tremec do this DCT right and it allows much better performance when pushed hard (or a simple ride to the grocery store) I won't miss the TR6060 at all.
 

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If it doesn't come in a manual at all, I'll probably end up just keeping my GT350 and putting a Whipple on it. Not interested in a DCT even if it's faster.
 

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Rumor has it, it might get the new 7-spd manual MT-88 as an option.
 

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Rumor has it, it might get the new 7-spd manual MT-88 as an option.
Too late and too low on torque capacity.

According to a spec page on the Getrag website, the 6/7MTI550 is a six or seven-speed manual transmission that is rated for 405 lb-ft of torque which would match well to the current rating of 400 lb-ft of the 2.7-liter EcoBoost engine. The spec page also shows a date of 2021 as well as the capability for use in all-wheel drive applications.
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