My prediction for the engine

[Grimace427]

Strange. I wonder how the Mach fits.

There is the GT, the GT350, the upcoming Cobra/GT500...

Meanwhile the Camaro has an ss, a forthcoming z28, and a zl1.

Unless the Mach 1 takes over for the gt350 and reinvents itself as a z28 killer, it seems difficult to justify (unless it takes over for the GT).

I hope it's treated very special. A Lightened up track terror with an engine that can rip straight line performance to shreds.

The SS is faster than the GT. The z28 will likely beat the 350 around the track. I don't think there's any way the zl1 isnt made a mockery of by the gt500, but I'd really hate for that to be the Mustangs only win.

A DI coyote would see the GT beat the DI SS. A power bumped and lightened gt350 should take a new z. And an FI v8 gt500 should crush the zl1. But dang if we don't have to wait so long to get there.

I really hope Ford isn't designing Mustang models for the sole purpose of beating Camaro model specs on paper. Had they done that with the basic lineup we'd probably be looking at the same problem that 6G Camaro fans are; high prices and poor sales.

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[Bullitt]

So given a financial requirement, meaning using an existing engine as a way to keep development costs down - and a way to keep the final consumer price reasonable, what other engine in the Ford lineup is available for re-use? One answer: 3.5 EcoBoost V-6. It's about to go into it's second generation, with more power across the board and two separate high-output versions (Raptor and Ford GT). Using this would also solve the problem of introducing this engine to the Mustang lineup, where it has a very important role to play in the longer term CAFE issue. It's also very highly modifiable and it would be a very fun engine to drive - coming on the boost is much more fun than coming on the "cam". And the 10 speed is already set to go with it (the standard transmission on the Raptor).

I could be wrong, but wasn't it confirmed that the 3.5 EcoBoost didn't fit in the current Mustang's engine bay due to piping taking up too much room? That engine does make sense down the road and I can see it going into the S650 very easily.

 

[S550Boss]

The Z/28 absolutely will beat the GT350 around the track, and the 1LE may very well do so too (it's designed to do so, and GM already has a GT350 to test) and at a better price point than the GT350 (at least 10k less). Keep in mind that the Z/28 will likely be about 70k or so.

The problem here is that the Camaro team has built a range of models with carefully chosen intermediate steps. While we don't want to design our product solely against the Camaro, what's needed here is an intermediate model between the GT and the GT350. Intermediate in terms of performance *and price*.

D.I. for the Coyote by itself won't be enough to beat the SS in track times, although it is a very crucial part of the equation that is needed (and don't forget that the Camaro V-8 has cylinder shut-off, which allows them to tune the motor more aggressively).

Missing from the Mustang GT are the magnetorheological shocks that are an option on the SS, as well as a serious suspension tune. The GT's "track pack" option has gotten soft and flabby over the years (it's better known as the "poseur pack" now). Then there's brakes... the Mustang still uses the cheap little iron single-piston caliper out back on everything except the GT350. Ridiculous.

So there could be an intermediate model between the GT and the GT350.

Don't look for a D.I. Coyote to be distinct from the regular Coyote - the tooling costs for D.I. are too large and the D.I. system would be a hand-me-down from the F-150 anyway since they pay the bills. So D.I. will be standard on all 5 liters. And don't look for "500 HP" - such dreaming is ridiculous. The D.I. could add perhaps 15-20 HP and (more importantly) more torque. Matching the HP of the SS is possible but definitely not the torque - not even close. And the Mustang is a lot heavier than the SS - GM has the far better chassis here (rich uncles at Cadillac paid all the expensive bills) and they have fully taken advantage of component sharing.

The rest of the parts for this hypothetical intermediate model such as the mag. shocks and better brakes would all be hand-me-down from the GT350 (don't expect the wider front fenders, so tire size will be narrower), although with much less aggressive tuning.

But that opens the next question - would the intermediate model (with the same V-8 HP as the GT but with a much better suspension and brakes over the GT) cannibalize sales from GT350? If so then the whole idea of a V-8 intermediate model is off because the GT350 was a very expensive program to tool up for and anything that hurts it's ROI hurts the entire GTxxx program. It has to make it's costs back before producing GT500 is considered... in fact GT500 would cannibalize some sales from GT350 so it may never be made, or it may not show up for a few years more.

Saving Mustang development costs and a solid ROI is critical here because of all the other much more higher volume programs that need very serious investment dollars: the upcoming new Fiesta and Focus, Ranger, a replacement for Explorer and Taurus, the entire electric program (very high cost, but so necessary), diesel and hybrid F-150s (watch that hybrid F-150 motor, it's technology could be important for S650), the transverse engine 9-speed, and rollout of the 10-speed for trucks (and Mustang).

So it's time to get methodical here, to step back and decide who this hypothetical intermediate model Mustang is actually being built for. Is it the same demographics as the last Mach 1 buyer (focusing more on V-8 power with suspension considerations secondary) or is it the leading-edge demographics of the S550 (focusing on more sophisticated suspension and technology)? Product planning is half following the market.. and the other half is leading the market. Perhaps leading the market here means borrowing the Raptor's 450 HP EcoBoost V-6 and ten-speed (and of course offering a manual tranny). Yes, the 3.5EB engine fits and some people have even built them on their own!). Maybe the advantages of a more interesting and dynamic engine to drive would appeal to this new buyer (as well as worldwide buyers who have to pay godawful taxes on V-8 or large displacement products). Maybe the advantages of taking weight off the front end would also be appreciated (since ye olde S197/S550 chassis sticks the engine so far forward). And this engine is already in production (a few months from now) so would be cheaper to justify than tooling up for an "orphan" engine... so perhaps better brakes and mag. shocks could be added to the price point and would add even more to this appeal.
This then is a different buyer than the GT buyer - more sophisticated, more interested in moving forward, but not to the same price point as the GT350 (which goes up for 2017 since the non track-pack model goes away). And maybe interested in getting a bit of M2/M4 mojo (without their ridiculous costs or their lousy steering feel!).
This intermediate model would also then lead the product forward as it goes into the S650 timeframe where in terms of total product mix V-8s are the exception, relegated to a narrower band, and higher-tech 4s and 6s are an even bigger percentage than they are now (which is already much broader than in the S197 timeframe). Don't forget CAFE, and equivalent standards around the world. This is reality and it can't be changed.
And let's not forget the modification potential of a turbocharged engine is far higher than a naturally aspirated V-8. If there is to be such a Mustang you'll see the aftermarket jump on it quickly (as well as Ford Performance) and 500HP/500tq will be just an easy (and emission-legal) "stage 1".

 

[Twin Turbo]

A tonne of interesting stuff

Probably one of the most interesting posts I've read about the this model yet, thanks S550Boss :cheers:

The latter part of your post is something I've been mulling over for months. I sincerely hope that there is a V8 available in the S650, but I appreciate that such an engine is unlikely to be in the GT model, as it is now. So, how do Ford get us used to the S650 GT being a Ecoboost 6? They give us a desirable S550 model with a Ecoboost 6. Break us in gently. It'll already be seen as a step up from the, already very popular, Ecoboost 4. A win at Le Mans would help to seal this engine's reputation. Perhaps, rather than Mach 1, it could be called the Mulsanne 1,2,3 :ford:

The one thing, for me personally, that it will have to work hard at is the sound. The Ecoboost 6 just won't have the classic V8/Mustang soundtrack, and that is going to be tough for me to come to terms with. That's why I hope there will continue to be a V8 option in S650.

But, your post has certainly given me more food for thought, thanks S550Boss

 

[Twin Turbo]

With regards the earlier part of you post relating to the next steps for the Coyote......I'll admit I was really hoping we'd see a cross plane crank version of the 5.2.......or at least a bit of a Coyote/Voodoo hybrid with DI. My initial thoughts are this would make sense if GT350 ends with the '17MY......giving space in the range for a 5.2 CPC DI Mach 1 (or whatever a mid-range car would be called).....whilst a FI V8 would see action in a GT500 for the '19/'20MY. Pretty much giving us a similar line-up as the S197 had with GT/Boss 302/GT500.

In my mind, the GT500 would have a FI version of that 5.2 CPC, meaning the development costs would be split over 2 models over 3 model years.

That still leaves the question as to whether the above makes an updated DI 5.0 Coyote viable for "just" the GT. But then that would also see duty in the F150

 

[S550Boss]

There are so many factors going into the S650 timeframe that will determine it's design, but the reality is emissions laws followed by fuel economy laws. None of us especially like this, but we have to face the reality of it. Look at the pollution in London, Paris, and many American cities. My own city has a yellow haze over it for much of the year. C02 is warming us up. And the dependency on foreign sources for fuel is the problem of the century.

That certainly means that V-8 Mustangs will be fewer and more concentrated at the high end of the line (and #$$$), while turbo 4 and TT 6s will be far more predominate. But this is where it gets really interesting. The existing turbo 4 could have a hybrid version with an electric motor sandwiched between the engine and transmission, the resulting torque could be as much as the current Coyote makes! And the 3.5 EB - about to go into it's own second generation with numerous improvements - has enormous promise for us as well as less weight. Then there is the 2.7 and 3.0 EB motors - the 3.0 makes 400HP/400tq already and weighs very little.

All these V-6 EB engines have tremendous untapped potential for the aftermarket... just wait until we see the Ford GT numbers from it's special 3.5EB.

As for V-8 sound, well, my DD supercharged Infiniti 3.7 with it's too-loud ARK exhaust makes a deep throaty snarl that puts a Coyote to shame, while pumping out 440 RW HP. The platform this car is built on (shared with 370Z and numerous other Infinitis) is what Ford should have done years ago - indeed did do with the aluminum-intensive DEW98 with it's state of the art SLA suspension up front and IRS out back. Designed in concert with Jaguar teaming in, staffed with racing and F1 engineers from both companies. A heck of a fine job, all gone now. It would have been in it's second generation by now and would be fully competitive with GM's Alpha platform.

So hopefully the S650 isn't just another subspecies in the evolution of this same basic platform: first there was DEW98 (intended for the Mustang in the 2002 timeframe, but cancelled), then that was dumbed down into the S197, then it was smartened up to the S550 (but is still the same basic bones underneath). And the S650 is most likely just another variant...? This platform devolution and evolution has made possible the Mustang re-emergence as we know it, including the international versions, but it is also saddled with inherent weight and packaging issues. And as we have now seen, the Camaro is actually lighter than the Mustang so that advantage is gone. And the Camaro shares the platform and therefore costs and components with other Alpha users (ATS, CTS, and perhaps a Buick coming up). That's an enormous advantage and the result is a very nearly state of the art platform. That platform is a couple of years from it's next step, which will take even more weight out.
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But back to the S550 "Mach 1" that will lead the way to the S650. The Mach 1 name is as good as any other because originally it superseded the GT and offered performance with more sophisticated features. Introducing a 3.5EB Mach 1 does not make a competitor to the 1LE or SS, but it does provide an entirely new direction, something Camaro does not have (but note it could, the ATS-V engine is obviously an easy bolt in) yet. First to market is important. This car (and I want the mag shocks and better brakes) would cost more than a GT, but would offer superior driving dynamics, would be much more fun to drive and would also make a nice export (just look at what the Australians would do with it - they are crazy about turbo'd sixes!). Price: very high upper 40s USD (the enhanced content GT350 moves up to very high 50s for 2017 since the base non-track pack model has been dropped and the newly available combination with the nav will result in loaded GT350s).

Cost to Ford to build this Mach 1: mostly parts reuse. The engine is already there for the 2017 Raptor, the 10-speed is already there (and should be showing up behind the Coyote soon anyway), a strong manual trans would have to be determined (preferably not the awful MT82), the GT350 mag. shocks would be reused (retuned less aggressively), the GT350 brakes would be reused, and the GT350 asymmetrical rear suspension control arms would be reused. Smaller tires, since the GT350 front fenders would not be used. I would also prefer the GT350's Recaros ac ross the Mustang, rather than the GT's Recaros, since they are a more modern design and work much better.

And, please, no more fake scoops or vents. Those have been the bane of the Mustang since day 1 and contribute nothing - in fact they take away serious cred.

 

[Hack]

SNIP C02 is warming us up. cred.

You've posted lots of good stuff but this is absolutely untrue. How can CO2 be warming us up when global temperatures are declining? People who say that the globe is warming absolutely have an agenda and a reason why they are lying to us.

 

[K-Roll302]

Just give us a damn S550 with the 2.7 or 3.0 TTV6 already. But please, don't make it absurdly expensive compared to the GT. I'd much rather a mid-range TTV6 between the EB and GT than one above the GT. Why not offer an Mach 1 Base and Mach 1 Premium?

 

[FordBlueHeart]

How about a Mach 1 with a V8 or an Ecoboost 3.5? I want a Mach 1 with the V8. If they put only the 3.5 V6 in it, I won't buy it. I understand that the 6 is technologically a "better" engine, but it's not what I want. In fact I would probably reconsider purchasing a Mustang at all. Not that I dislike the GT, just that I find offering the Mach 1 only with the 6 a major letdown and I'll show my displeasure with my wallet.
Best case scenario if they only offered this mid level offering with the 6 is to not call it a Mach 1.

 

[Bullitt]

Yeah, what S550Boss says makes a lot of sense and I could see Ford sharing the same thoughts very easily. But, look at how many people were disappointed when the new Ford GT didn't come with a V8. Also look at how many people including large publications like Motor Trend were begging for the ATS-V to come with a V8 instead of a the TTV6. There is still a very old school way of thinking that even if it is frustrating or outdated, still writes the checks for these cars. Sure you'll have a good amount of progressive people that get excited about it, but others (like the post above mine) would not be into it. The Mustang is still very much an old-school car and many people buy it for the heritage and retro philosophy of it all. At the end of the day, if they really want to market the new Mach 1 as an American BMW M4 then they should at least still give a V8 option (could just be 5.0 with breathing mods and the like to give it an even 450 hp and I think people would be happy enough).

The only other angle I can think of is to do two models. Mach 1 with the TTV6, Bullitt with the massaged 5.0. That would provide room in the model lineup for two special editions since their missions would be very different. Make the Bullitt for those that want an old school faster Mustang, Mach 1 for those that want a handling beast with a forwarding thinking powertrain. As for price, either of them could get away with high 40s (maybe even very low 50s) and still be a perfect in-between point, assuming the GT350 production continues for the rest of S550 which I highly doubt. I think for 2018 you'll see a GT500 that's even more expensive than the GT350, which would make these in-between models even more necessary with a hypothetically 65k+ GT500.

 

[Riktar]

[MENTION=6599]S550Boss[/MENTION] Stop making sense, I'm not used to logical ideas placed in a coherent sentence dammit! (all minus the g37 sounding better than a 5.0, and I came form a fully modded G )

Considering what some of the ecoboosts are putting out currently a v6 would be an absolute monster.

I would also like to echo your sentiment regarding the stick on/fake scoops. For the love of all that is holy, please avoid fake hood scoops, vents, and stick on "roush/autozone" looking parts. It's bad enough the internet is riddled with cars and coffee idiots losing their sh*t and taking out people/poles/cars, we don't need to be ridiculed for having fake vents while doing so.

/.2¢

 

[mikeyjobu]

I'm all for progress, but to me there's a disconnect when reviving a classic moniker like Mach 1 - something that brings to mind classics past, and then dismiss what people associate with it. From a marketing standpoint, I doesn't make sense. I'm all for an ecoboost V6, but not for calling it a Mach 1. Why can't Ford create a new moniker for a special ecoboost 6?

 

[mikeyjobu]

I would not mind eventually seeing a 4.7 ecoboost 8... for the standard GT at some point.

 

[75Brick]

4.6L flat plane TTV8





Disclaimer: I have no inside knowledge, but I do hope it's a V8 of some variety as I will be in the market in 2018/2019, and I love my V8s!

 

[mikeyjobu]

for a Mach 1: BIG POWER NA V8, MUTHATRUCKAAA!!! and dat shaker hood -- that's a MUST for the MACH!

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