valentinoamoro
Well-Known Member
- Thread starter
- #1
Like many, I'm tired of receiving 'Camaro will destroy Mustang..' or 'Camaro is better than Mustang' notifications. I'm also unable to keep up with some of the nonsense and utter crap being posted on that thread (there is a totally nonsense discussion of 4-5 pages on the Camaro radiator design), but am curious about the Camaro Vs Mustang, so starting a fresh one out here. Request folks stick to known facts and thoughts based on the evidence we have seen or known.
What we know:
>Weight: The Camaro is lighter than the last generation. Unknown is the actual weights based on models/option packages (final weights customers will see) and how they will compare to Mustang.
> Exterior: In photos, the Camaro looks extremely similar to the last gen, to the point where an auto enthusiast may have a hard time telling them apart - forget the average person. Looks are subjective, but for many its a disappointment with quotes like 'the sedan architecture is obvious', Ăts too squinty looking in the front'', 'really bland rear'etc dominating. Some people think its a nice evolution in exterior design. I will reserve judgement till I see Ă©m in person, but feel it will be hard to beat the sexy sleek fastback 'raked sports car look the S550 has. Which one will age better? Only time will tell.
> Interior looks: The interior seems vastly improved. GM seems to have gone for a more sporty theme and youthful 'techno/tron/transformers' look with the inside looking like a night club. This is not a bad thing, and the comparison Vs the Mustangs interior seems to like that between a Lambo Vs Ferrari. I personally love the sophisticated, comfortable and sporty interior of my Mustang and feel it will age well and suits where I am in life. Both seem well appointed and fully featured, making anyone who spends an extra 20K more on equivalent German cars seem like an idiot. (I used to be one of them).
> Engine: The LT1 will be a powerhouse and likely have a bigger 'kick in the pants' Vs the Coyote, but having driven many many nice engines I will say the character of an engine is more than its power and torque, but the curve and feel of it when it moves through its rpms. The 2006 BMW 330 and 2015 328i had for example gems of motors with smooth power delivery, good torque and a willingness to rev. As far as V8's go (or NA engines), the Coyote is as good as it gets, with delightful power and willingness of just keep pulling. I want to see if the LT1 feels as smooth as the Coyote or inherits the more truckish feel of the LS engines (they seem to have higher inertia). Engine reliability of the LT engine is also open to debate, with C7's having issues with failure (at least early models). Additionally, DI could cause issues with carbon buildup and power loss over long periods of time (for those who plan on keeping their car or buying a used one).
The current V6 in the Camaro is a dog - rough, buzzy, loud and crap. The new one seems like its vastly improved, however, if it isnt significantly smoother/better sounding and rev happy, regardless of the power it makes it wont be much fun. The EB is a decent engine, but really runs out of steam quickly and doesnt sound nice. I think the engines provide good alternatives for NA fans Vs folks who want boost and tunability.
> Magnetic shocks - GM's (technically supplier Delphi) magnetic shock technology is great. It made the pig of a car - the Camaro ZL1 take curbs like a champ. In the ATS, reviews have been mixed (not the ATS-V, which is yet to be thoroughly vetted). Even Ferrari licenses it from them. I think its an awesome OPTION that we don't get yet. However, for those wanting to go for a more sporty setup, the choice to go aftermarket is always there and suspension technology is at a point where its easy to tune cars of the ride/handling balance you want. The magneride is for those who want a stock system with a degree of easy tunability, and will likely keep it that way. There have been mixed reports on the long term cost/reliability of these, with threads on forums on issues with them and a high cost of replacement.
> Dual exhaust - This is a good OPTION for those who want a silent exhaust that can occasionally be opened up. I would like this in my Stang, only if the 'on throttle' sound was to my liking and the tips were black chrome and large. I'm instead going to go aftermarket and get one that I really like (With the hope the sound while cruising is not too loud).
> Technology - Camaro seems to have a slight edge here, with dual LCD screens and HUD. Personally, this stuff keeps evolving on a day by day basis, gets outdated quickly and is a PITA to maintain as they age, so I dont really care for either. OK, I would prefer if the Stang projected real time G figures onto my windshield, but its really a nice to have thing I wouldnt want to pay much for! OTOH, for those with nav having arrows on the windshield might be useful.
> Sophistication and ergonomics - Mustang has come a long way in refinement. Infact, the whole S550 Vs S197 change has been around this. Refinement of interior, ergonomics, handling etc. Objectively, except for track times this car is on paper the same as the S197 - but Ford has knocked the intangibles of what makes a good drivers car out of the park. So much so that this car is easily comparable (and in my book better) than the E92 M3 with many drivers preferring how this car drives Vs the faster M4. Even things like the interior space improvement in the front, the acoustic windshield, the umbrella storage, sunglass holder, wide trunk entry etc seem incredibly well thought out. Seats that provide a solid balance of comfort and grip. Is it perfect, no - some rough edges remain like the clutch, but overall its very good. I do like the heated steering wheel option on the Camaro, but its perfectly a nice to have. I dunno if they offer cooled seats like Ford, which I have come to appreciate. The Camaro's sophistication is unknown at this stage, but if its anything like the ATS thats a good thing. However, I question why GM would make a better car than the ATS for 15-20K cheaper.
> Image- This is up for debate with loyal fans on both sides, but people I've spoken to seem to have a more favorable impression of Mustangs than Camaros. This could be due to the longer heritage and continuous production of the Stang. Worst comment for Stang is ''high school girls car'' regarding the V6, Camaro is 'trailer park trash car'. I don't buy a car for image so don't care but some may. Regardless, both firms are making huge strides in cultivating a better image for these beasts that aligns well with their vastly improved capabilities.
> Track worthiness - The S550 seems like a beast on the track. Someone shared me a video of the guys at Vorshlag tracking the car in Texas that was just astonishing (look it up on You Tube), the car walked an E92 M3 that was being driven hard like it wasnt moving. However, GM has incredible track prowess and emphasizes this deeply (more so than Ford, as they have worked this angle with their Corvette and CTS programs). It wouldn't be surprising to see the SS with the right package be faster than the GTPP with a pro driver, but that's unknown at this stage. With most drivers, skill would likely be the determining factor. It does seem though based on some comments on the other thread (and my experience), the prior Camaros like the 1LE don't kick ass in auto-cross like the magazine reviews/GM promotionals would suggest, with most coming in slower stock than the Mustangs. Not sure what the reason is behind those, other than the poor visibility and less nimble feeling of Gen 5. This may change in the newer Gen.
> Tunablity and Aftermarket - Good options for both aftermarket with the Stang having a larger set of choices as its been around more. I will say, one you get in the tuning game, the OEM configurations of both cars (at least the option packages) become less important, with things that cant easily be fixed post purchase like chassis stiffness, steering feel, visibility, weight etc factoring more. I'd say for 2-8K each both cars will eat anything from Germany alive. We do know the Coyote is good for upto 650 or more HP stock which is incredible. We also know the LS3 responded well to tuning, as does the Coyote. However, NA Coyotes will not hit the 480+ HP mark easily, while rumors have it the LT1 with tune and bolt ons could do 500. (Side note - I dunno why but the 6.3L Hemi in the SRT does not respond well to bolt ons and tunes!) Time will tell, but I expect the power difference to be mostly academic given the weight of these cars and the small difference (perhaps of 20-35HP max). The nice thing about this rivalry is, if Ford and GM decide to improve their cars to keep up with each other, its possible many of these improvements can be ported down to folks like us who have older model years (as the chassis and mounting points are likely to be the same!)
http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/camaro-parts/z28.html
Visibility - Judging from photos, the Camaro continues to have terrible visibility, with GM pre-empting the criticism by addressing this up front in their press release. To me this is an absolute deal breaker, I have drive various forms of the C5 Camaro and absolutely hated the 'sitting in a bathtub and looking out' or 'bunker' feeling I had in the Camaro. It makes placing the car much harder and is claustrophobic.
> Steering feel - Unknown in the Camaro, but the CTS I drove had good feel. The Mustang has incredible feel and the right level of quickness, not too quick like the hot hatches and STI where freeway cruising is nervous, neither is it too slow like the S197. We''ll have to see where the Camaro comes in here.
Now can we please make friends with the boys on Camaro 5/6 and join forces and rag on the BMW M and AMG boards? Oh, and Toyota should hang their head in shame with the RCF. Ridiculous.
What we know:
>Weight: The Camaro is lighter than the last generation. Unknown is the actual weights based on models/option packages (final weights customers will see) and how they will compare to Mustang.
> Exterior: In photos, the Camaro looks extremely similar to the last gen, to the point where an auto enthusiast may have a hard time telling them apart - forget the average person. Looks are subjective, but for many its a disappointment with quotes like 'the sedan architecture is obvious', Ăts too squinty looking in the front'', 'really bland rear'etc dominating. Some people think its a nice evolution in exterior design. I will reserve judgement till I see Ă©m in person, but feel it will be hard to beat the sexy sleek fastback 'raked sports car look the S550 has. Which one will age better? Only time will tell.
> Interior looks: The interior seems vastly improved. GM seems to have gone for a more sporty theme and youthful 'techno/tron/transformers' look with the inside looking like a night club. This is not a bad thing, and the comparison Vs the Mustangs interior seems to like that between a Lambo Vs Ferrari. I personally love the sophisticated, comfortable and sporty interior of my Mustang and feel it will age well and suits where I am in life. Both seem well appointed and fully featured, making anyone who spends an extra 20K more on equivalent German cars seem like an idiot. (I used to be one of them).
> Engine: The LT1 will be a powerhouse and likely have a bigger 'kick in the pants' Vs the Coyote, but having driven many many nice engines I will say the character of an engine is more than its power and torque, but the curve and feel of it when it moves through its rpms. The 2006 BMW 330 and 2015 328i had for example gems of motors with smooth power delivery, good torque and a willingness to rev. As far as V8's go (or NA engines), the Coyote is as good as it gets, with delightful power and willingness of just keep pulling. I want to see if the LT1 feels as smooth as the Coyote or inherits the more truckish feel of the LS engines (they seem to have higher inertia). Engine reliability of the LT engine is also open to debate, with C7's having issues with failure (at least early models). Additionally, DI could cause issues with carbon buildup and power loss over long periods of time (for those who plan on keeping their car or buying a used one).
The current V6 in the Camaro is a dog - rough, buzzy, loud and crap. The new one seems like its vastly improved, however, if it isnt significantly smoother/better sounding and rev happy, regardless of the power it makes it wont be much fun. The EB is a decent engine, but really runs out of steam quickly and doesnt sound nice. I think the engines provide good alternatives for NA fans Vs folks who want boost and tunability.
> Magnetic shocks - GM's (technically supplier Delphi) magnetic shock technology is great. It made the pig of a car - the Camaro ZL1 take curbs like a champ. In the ATS, reviews have been mixed (not the ATS-V, which is yet to be thoroughly vetted). Even Ferrari licenses it from them. I think its an awesome OPTION that we don't get yet. However, for those wanting to go for a more sporty setup, the choice to go aftermarket is always there and suspension technology is at a point where its easy to tune cars of the ride/handling balance you want. The magneride is for those who want a stock system with a degree of easy tunability, and will likely keep it that way. There have been mixed reports on the long term cost/reliability of these, with threads on forums on issues with them and a high cost of replacement.
> Dual exhaust - This is a good OPTION for those who want a silent exhaust that can occasionally be opened up. I would like this in my Stang, only if the 'on throttle' sound was to my liking and the tips were black chrome and large. I'm instead going to go aftermarket and get one that I really like (With the hope the sound while cruising is not too loud).
> Technology - Camaro seems to have a slight edge here, with dual LCD screens and HUD. Personally, this stuff keeps evolving on a day by day basis, gets outdated quickly and is a PITA to maintain as they age, so I dont really care for either. OK, I would prefer if the Stang projected real time G figures onto my windshield, but its really a nice to have thing I wouldnt want to pay much for! OTOH, for those with nav having arrows on the windshield might be useful.
> Sophistication and ergonomics - Mustang has come a long way in refinement. Infact, the whole S550 Vs S197 change has been around this. Refinement of interior, ergonomics, handling etc. Objectively, except for track times this car is on paper the same as the S197 - but Ford has knocked the intangibles of what makes a good drivers car out of the park. So much so that this car is easily comparable (and in my book better) than the E92 M3 with many drivers preferring how this car drives Vs the faster M4. Even things like the interior space improvement in the front, the acoustic windshield, the umbrella storage, sunglass holder, wide trunk entry etc seem incredibly well thought out. Seats that provide a solid balance of comfort and grip. Is it perfect, no - some rough edges remain like the clutch, but overall its very good. I do like the heated steering wheel option on the Camaro, but its perfectly a nice to have. I dunno if they offer cooled seats like Ford, which I have come to appreciate. The Camaro's sophistication is unknown at this stage, but if its anything like the ATS thats a good thing. However, I question why GM would make a better car than the ATS for 15-20K cheaper.
> Image- This is up for debate with loyal fans on both sides, but people I've spoken to seem to have a more favorable impression of Mustangs than Camaros. This could be due to the longer heritage and continuous production of the Stang. Worst comment for Stang is ''high school girls car'' regarding the V6, Camaro is 'trailer park trash car'. I don't buy a car for image so don't care but some may. Regardless, both firms are making huge strides in cultivating a better image for these beasts that aligns well with their vastly improved capabilities.
> Track worthiness - The S550 seems like a beast on the track. Someone shared me a video of the guys at Vorshlag tracking the car in Texas that was just astonishing (look it up on You Tube), the car walked an E92 M3 that was being driven hard like it wasnt moving. However, GM has incredible track prowess and emphasizes this deeply (more so than Ford, as they have worked this angle with their Corvette and CTS programs). It wouldn't be surprising to see the SS with the right package be faster than the GTPP with a pro driver, but that's unknown at this stage. With most drivers, skill would likely be the determining factor. It does seem though based on some comments on the other thread (and my experience), the prior Camaros like the 1LE don't kick ass in auto-cross like the magazine reviews/GM promotionals would suggest, with most coming in slower stock than the Mustangs. Not sure what the reason is behind those, other than the poor visibility and less nimble feeling of Gen 5. This may change in the newer Gen.
> Tunablity and Aftermarket - Good options for both aftermarket with the Stang having a larger set of choices as its been around more. I will say, one you get in the tuning game, the OEM configurations of both cars (at least the option packages) become less important, with things that cant easily be fixed post purchase like chassis stiffness, steering feel, visibility, weight etc factoring more. I'd say for 2-8K each both cars will eat anything from Germany alive. We do know the Coyote is good for upto 650 or more HP stock which is incredible. We also know the LS3 responded well to tuning, as does the Coyote. However, NA Coyotes will not hit the 480+ HP mark easily, while rumors have it the LT1 with tune and bolt ons could do 500. (Side note - I dunno why but the 6.3L Hemi in the SRT does not respond well to bolt ons and tunes!) Time will tell, but I expect the power difference to be mostly academic given the weight of these cars and the small difference (perhaps of 20-35HP max). The nice thing about this rivalry is, if Ford and GM decide to improve their cars to keep up with each other, its possible many of these improvements can be ported down to folks like us who have older model years (as the chassis and mounting points are likely to be the same!)
http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/camaro-parts/z28.html
Visibility - Judging from photos, the Camaro continues to have terrible visibility, with GM pre-empting the criticism by addressing this up front in their press release. To me this is an absolute deal breaker, I have drive various forms of the C5 Camaro and absolutely hated the 'sitting in a bathtub and looking out' or 'bunker' feeling I had in the Camaro. It makes placing the car much harder and is claustrophobic.
> Steering feel - Unknown in the Camaro, but the CTS I drove had good feel. The Mustang has incredible feel and the right level of quickness, not too quick like the hot hatches and STI where freeway cruising is nervous, neither is it too slow like the S197. We''ll have to see where the Camaro comes in here.
Now can we please make friends with the boys on Camaro 5/6 and join forces and rag on the BMW M and AMG boards? Oh, and Toyota should hang their head in shame with the RCF. Ridiculous.
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