Lemon Log

[paul123]

At any rate, my issue is with Mustang initial quality. It's poor. Just look at the threads in this sub-forum. Lots of problems. When my car had the DL vibration issue, the service manager went out and drove all the Mustangs on the lot (6 at the time) and 2 others had the same problem. That's quite a high percentage. Because I do like hard numbers, I went to JD Powers and looked it up and sure enough, 2015 Mustang is in last place in midsize sporty cars.

I went over to Consumer Reports and checked sports cars. Sure enough, Mustang (and Challenger) have an ugly solid black dot for Predicted Reliability. Camaro has a white dot, which is neutral.

Mustang and Challenger get top score for Owner Satisfaction. Camaro gets slightly less owner satisfacation rating. Even if you can deal with the visibility issues, at least where I live, you aren't going to get into an SS version for anywhere near a base Mustang GT.

BMW M235i and Honda Civic Si have the top predicted reliability. The former is very expensive, and will have high repair costs as it drifts out of warranty and accumulates miles. The latter isn't a V8. Still a fun car I am sure, but its a different species.

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[paul123]

At any rate, my issue is with Mustang initial quality. It's poor. Just look at the threads in this sub-forum. Lots of problems.

One of my main concerns is not initial quality per se, but if something breaks, I want it fixed fast. And I don't see a lot of the word "fast" in this section. That may or may not be a dealership issue. I can easily imagine that they are pushing way more new cars out the door than they are prepared to warranty repair.

 

[paul123]

You are living in an imaginary world my friend. Honda, Toyota, Subaru, and Nissan have had nothing but problems with their CVTs. They don't even make it out of warranty without requiring replacement of the entire transmission. All it takes it a simple google search to see the issues that those manufacturers have. 200K? LOL, keep dreaming.

Consumer Reports show excellent predicted reliability for the Japanese brands, many if not most of which will have a CVT, at least in the sedans.

Nissan, the Chrysler of Japan, is an exception. :lol:

I am optimistic a well engineered CVT will hold up through the warranty, or even to 100k miles. But much beyond warranty, if a CVT starts to slip or fails, the car is totaled. This is definitely appliance territory.

 

[FordTechOne]

Consumer Reports show excellent predicted reliability for the Japanese brands, many if not most of which will have a CVT, at least in the sedans.

Nissan, the Chrysler of Japan, is an exception. :lol:

I am optimistic a well engineered CVT will hold up through the warranty, or even to 100k miles. But much beyond warranty, if a CVT starts to slip or fails, the car is totaled. This is definitely appliance territory.

Consumer Reports is regarded by everyone in the automotive industry as a bad joke. Unlike JD Power, they don't do a comprehensive, unbiased study. Instead, they send out surveys to their own subscribers, and their "Predicted Reliability" is nothing more than a biased guess based on their own brand preferences. They predict "Excellent" reliability for almost all Honda models, yet anyone who owns one with a failed automatic transmission (extremely common in multiple models) can tell you that they no longer trust Consumer Reports.

CR is such a joke that they gave the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe completely different reliability ratings when they were still on the market. What CR forgot to account for was that they were mechanically identical vehicles built in the same plant on the same assembly line. That alone blows a huge hole in CR's credibility and exposed their bias. CR might help you pick a good toaster oven, but they don't know jack about cars.

 

[FordTechOne]

Haha, I like my world. One of the reasons I did not buy an Accord coupe was the CVT. I hated it. But blanket statements like " Honda, Toyota, Subaru, and Nissan have had nothing but problems with their CVTs. They don't even make it out of warranty without requiring replacement of the entire transmission" are absurd. Every one of them has had a problem? That is what you are saying. My sister's Nissan must be the sole exception to the rule- no problems at all. I don't know what the stats are but I'd want to see them before making statement like that.

Of course you don't know what the stats are, you like to live in your own ignorance. You're going off one model out of hundreds of thousands that hasn't failed YET. They have an extremely high failure rate. They are so high that Nissan was forced to offer extended warranty coverage on almost all of their models:

http://www.nissanassist.com/vehicles.php?menu=5

That's quite a high percentage. Because I do like hard numbers, I went to JD Powers and looked it up and sure enough, 2015 Mustang is in last place in midsize sporty cars. And Ford only took 1 first place in any segment- Heavy Duty Pickups.

http://www.jdpower.com/cars/study/2015-Initial-Quality-Study-%28IQS%29-by-Category/567ENG/Midsize-Sporty-Car/1077

http://www.jdpower.com/cars/study/2...S)-by-Category/567ENG/Midsize-Sporty-Car/1077

Looks like you need to learn to read a chart. The Mustang is not in last place. They vehicles are not listed in order from first to last. As expected, the Hyundai Genesis is the lowest quality midsize sports car.

 

[paul123]

Consumer Reports is regarded by everyone in the automotive industry as a bad joke. Unlike JD Power, they don't do a comprehensive, unbiased study. Instead, they send out surveys to their own subscribers, and their "Predicted Reliability" is nothing more than a biased guess based on their own brand preferences. They predict "Excellent" reliability for almost all Honda models, yet anyone who owns one with a failed automatic transmission (extremely common in multiple models) can tell you that they no longer trust Consumer Reports.

I like CR but its car data could be a little fuzzy. I am not really sure how good JD Powers is either. For proper data, we would need to see numbers generated by the dealerships, total number of warranty repairs, repair by major subsystem, MTTR, etc. aggregated at a national level, but I am not holding my breathe for that.

CR is such a joke that they gave the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe completely different reliability ratings when they were still on the market. What CR forgot to account for was that they were mechanically identical vehicles built in the same plant on the same assembly line. That alone blows a huge hole in CR's credibility and exposed their bias. CR might help you pick a good toaster oven, but they don't know jack about cars.

google returned this at the top of its search:

http://www.guideautoweb.com/en/arti...-matrix-six-of-one-a-half-dozen-of-the-other/

Let's get something out of the way right now: the Vibe and the Matrix are two non-identical twins whose only differences, their bodies aside, are in the details of their equipment. The majority of their mechanical and structural components come from Toyota, just like the various elements that make up the passenger compartment. Toyota buyers who stubbornly believe that the Vibe is less fuel-efficient, less reliable and less durable have no idea what they are talking about.

:lol:

 

[FordTechOne]

I like CR but its car data could be a little fuzzy. I am not really sure how good JD Powers is either. For proper data, we would need to see numbers generated by the dealerships, total number of warranty repairs, repair by major subsystem, MTTR, etc. aggregated at a national level, but I am not holding my breathe for that.

I agree. Unfortunately nobody has been able to get that kind of information out I this industry. Perhaps one day that will be a reality.

 

[speedfrk]

One of my main concerns is not initial quality per se, but if something breaks, I want it fixed fast. And I don't see a lot of the word "fast" in this section. That may or may not be a dealership issue. I can easily imagine that they are pushing way more new cars out the door than they are prepared to warranty repair.

Initial quality is important to the manufacturers because it is a "first impression" thing that sticks with people and leaves a bad taste in their mouth. It is also the reason none of my friends are really considering a Mustang even though they are both in the market for a new car.

You are right about not "fast". That is what is so annoying- the dealer and Ford didn't seem to think my time was worth anything and had no problem telling me to come pick the car up when it wasn't fixed and they knew I would bring it back. The dealer really wanted to fix the car but they simply didn't know what to do. Honestly, if everyone on the forum wasn't sharing their experiences with repairs that worked/didn't work, I think it would have been lemon lawed. Compared to my friend's Mercedes, it was a horrible experience and makes me wish I had bought a CPO E-class with a 100K warranty.

 

[paul123]

Compared to my friend's Mercedes, it was a horrible experience and makes me wish I had bought a CPO E-class with a 100K warranty.

How much is that? I looked at CPO E-class, and they appeared to run around $40k for a 1-3 year old models, usually of the "loaner" / lease variety. Both of which could easily have been abused, since nobody planned to own it long term.

CPO offered 4 year / 50k warranty that started since the date of first purchase, and added one more year as a bonus. How much is a longer warranty?

Assume a one year old CPO car and the standard warranty, that leaves 4 years of warranty. After that, repair costs on a Benz will run double or triple that of a Ford, so it could be an expensive car to buy and maintain for 10 years or beyond.

I noticed you have a '15. First model year for IRS. What's the chances of drive-train headaches? I would have to poke around here more to see if that sort of thing persists into '16.

 

[speedfrk]

Of course you don't know what the stats are, you like to live in your own ignorance. You're going off one model out of hundreds of thousands that hasn't failed YET. They have an extremely high failure rate. They are so high that Nissan was forced to offer extended warranty coverage on almost all of their models:

http://www.nissanassist.com/vehicles.php?menu=5



Looks like you need to learn to read a chart. The Mustang is not in last place. They vehicles are not listed in order from first to last. As expected, the Hyundai Genesis is the lowest quality midsize sports car.

You must have read the book "How to win friends and influence people". Hopefully, Ford doesn't let you talk to customers. The example of my sister's car was just to show that your statement was pretty exaggerated- it is not every CVT equipped car. Maybe her car will need a new transmission before 100K but, she will not own it beyond the warranty period anyway. Once again, my complaint with the Mustang is initial quality- how many times do I have to take the car to a dealer to fix things that should have been right from the factory. Being a 2015, there are questions about long term durability that won't be answered for several years- like how well the 2.3 EB motor will hold up, etc.

The JD Power chart does not say what the weighting is on the different categories and they are not in alphabetical order either. I would not expect interior design issues to be weighted the same as complete mechanical breakdowns. So, absent something saying that the order after 1st place is meaningless, or the models listed after 1st place are alphabetical (which they aren't), why would you think a company like JD Power is not ranking them in the proper order? Maybe they aren't but ranking cars is what they do...

 

[speedfrk]

How much is that? I looked at CPO E-class, and they appeared to run around $40k for a 1-3 year old models, usually of the "loaner" / lease variety. Both of which could easily have been abused, since nobody planned to own it long term.

CPO offered 4 year / 50k warranty that started since the date of first purchase, and added one more year as a bonus. How much is a longer warranty?

Assume a one year old CPO car and the standard warranty, that leaves 4 years of warranty. After that, repair costs on a Benz will run double or triple that of a Ford, so it could be an expensive car to buy and maintain for 10 years or beyond.

I noticed you have a '15. First model year for IRS. What's the chances of drive-train headaches? I would have to poke around here more to see if that sort of thing persists into '16.

Almost all CPO cars are low mileage off-lease cars. The lease rate for premium brands is pretty high but they are usually 10K per year leases and include maintenance. Prices vary a lot by region. Lots of good deals in FL. Not so many up here in ATL because people drive so many more miles up here. When I was looking, there were plenty in the 30K range in FL. BTW, I've heard from several people that Carmax is one of the best places to buy a high-end car because they offer a great extended warranty- but you do have to pay for it.
This car is actually in TX- 20K miles, CPO
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Be...7fd3e160:g:cJoAAOSwo3pWdKN8&item=371511779680

 

[paul123]

Almost all CPO cars are low mileage off-lease cars. The lease rate for premium brands is pretty high but they are usually 10K per year leases and include maintenance. Prices vary a lot by region. Lots of good deals in FL. Not so many up here in ATL because people drive so many more miles up here.

I bet you could get a good deal on a gently used Benz in FL.

with a username like speedfrk, I think you should dump that lemon '15 EB for a '16 GT with manual transmission.

If the GT is again a problem, and the Ford Service Center is still giving you the run-a-round, then bolt on a S/C, void the warranty, and "go native".

 

[speedfrk]

I bet you could get a good deal on a gently used Benz in FL.

with a username like speedfrk, I think you should dump that lemon '15 EB for a '16 GT with manual transmission.

If the GT is again a problem, and the Ford Service Center is still giving you the run-a-round, then bolt on a S/C, void the warranty, and "go native".

Haha, well, this car is my DD and a manual isn't a good idea in Atlanta unless it is a weekend play car. If the car proves reliable through the winter, I'll do an intercooler and tune in the spring.

The driveline vibration problem affects all variations of the car- GT's, EB, V6, etc. Look at the poll in the thread- about 40% report feeling it. For some it is really bad and for some it is livable. But it is a big problem and the 2016's have it as well, and it often doesn't show up for a few thousand miles after new.

 

[Ayabe]

I've owned a few CPO's, my last was a 2006 C55 AMG that I got with 43,000 miles on it for 21K OTD in 2010.

There are a few things you should know - CPO's can vary quite a bit dealer to dealer, I got mine from a large dealer with a great rep - on my first service visit basically every bushing in the suspension was replaced under warranty - they were all shot and ignored by the selling dealer. They likely didn't want to eat the cost of repairs and shoved it onto the MB CPO program.

So it can be kinda of crap shoot, some will repair cosmetic defects and some won't.

I put over 120,000 more miles on that thing and it never let me down but warranty repairs + out of pocket repair costs for that time period are well over 12K...yes that's not a typo.

So just know what you're getting in to. The good news is that MB actually gives a shit about their customers so none of this 4-5 weeks, no ETA on parts stuff. I was never without my car for more than 2 days.

 

[paul123]

Haha, well, this car is my DD and a manual isn't a good idea in Atlanta unless it is a weekend play car. If the car proves reliable through the winter, I'll do an intercooler and tune in the spring.

The driveline vibration problem affects all variations of the car- GT's, EB, V6, etc. Look at the poll in the thread- about 40% report feeling it. For some it is really bad and for some it is livable. But it is a big problem and the 2016's have it as well, and it often doesn't show up for a few thousand miles after new.

I suppose a manual transmission & S/C isn't all that practical for Atlanta traffic.

The drive-line vibration problem sounds like growing pains for the new IRS. Still, I do notice that some car makers fix stuff fast, while others move slow. For example, if you follow the IIHS, they will crash test a car, with many cars failing the relatively new 2012 small-overlap crash test. Some car-makers will scramble and fix that almost immediately for the next model year. Others will continue to fail year after year. Can't explain why that is.

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