Last year for V8 2024 (and Mach-E discussion) via Ford Performance conference call

Discussion in 'Mustang S550 General Forums' started by Ebm, Dec 15, 2019.

  1. Twin Turbo

    Twin Turbo Super Moderator
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    I've had the pleasure of meeting both gentlemen and consider them both to be as important to today's Mustang as Lee Iacocca and Hal Sperlich were back in '64.

    I believe the last time I saw Tom Barnes on video was at the first press drives of the '18MY. I hope he's still doing what he does best for Mustang. However, Carl Widmann (Chief Mustang Engineer since Dave Pericak moved on up) seems to do most of the press video launch stuff now,
     
  2. nametoshowothers

    nametoshowothers Well-Known Member

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    There is significant real science that is the mainstream that the hysteria around climate change is not real. The world did not end yesterday or will it end tomorrow. The biggest problem is that the scenario being played out in political world is the worst case that is not actually happening. Resulting in a hysteria and false claims about the world ending and deranged teenagers screaming at the world

    search the national post in canada for gretas worries being solved.
     
  3. Ericc B

    Ericc B Well-Known Member

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    I so envy all you guys in the USA who can choose if you want a next president that is in favor or against V8's. Over here in Europe we can vote whatever we want, the unchosen climate hysterical dictators that run the European Union will kill all ICE vehicles in the next 10 years anyway.

    Personally I am not the least bit interested in any ICE vehicle other than a V8. Whenever I drive a 4 banger or even a V6 the only thing that comes to mind is how lame they sound. As far as I'm concerned if the V8 were eventually to disappear I would wholeheartedly embrace a high power AWD dual electric motor Mustang BEV coupe over any V6 or I4 ICE version. At least that will give you insane acceleration to compensate for the loss of sound emotion.
     
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  4. CrashOverride

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    To my brothers and sisters in the EU: I've long thought that in the EU, taxes are based on engine size, or perhaps car insurance was. Is that true, or is it based on CO2/Km?

    Here in the US that's not the case, but as Ford (And now in the case of the Corvette, GM) places a larger emphasis on global car sales, I believe there will be a blending of the design criteria. Call it the "Least Common Denominator" or perhaps "Designing for the least taxation/safety surcharge". I've read that front ends are becoming flatter and hoods raising because of EU pedestrian protection. And I don't think it is a surprise to anyone that has driven a Ford over the last few years that digging the headrest into the back of your skull (To the point where you are forced to nod forward) is part of the IIHS or NHTSA safety regulations/ratings for whiplash prevention.

    Ford might be trying to work their way around something that y'all are familiar with, but we aren't. I know in the 90's about the Japanese "Gentlemen's agreement" on horsepower being limited to 277 HP if I remember correctly. Or perhaps it was an even 300. I seem to remember that Nissan, Mitsubishi and Mazda were all de-rating engines because of things like that. I also read that the Lexus SC Coupe had a back seat created only for insurance reasons - because a 2 seater was too expensive (I don't presume that to be the case here in the US, but maybe elsewhere?).

    If there is some "magic" engine size limit, call it 3L, then there really is no point for a 3L v8 unless you are Ferrari or an F1 team. If it's a CO2 thing, then there is more of a chance because that is more about true efficiency than an arbitrary engine volume.
     
  5. Ace

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    At least in this release from August Barnes and Widmann were still mentioned in their known positions. So I guess they are in lead for the next facelift and/or Gen7

    Every european country is handling this different. In Germany it's a combination of engine capacity and CO²/km. But the CO² part will be increased by an insane amount here from 2021, so a new mustang GT will they be about 1200€ tax instead of 500€ per year.
     
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  6. zackmd1

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    #381 zackmd1, Dec 19, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019
    Most of that sound has to do with the firing order. A little bit deals with the head design. LS engines have quite a bit different firing order.

    The coyote absolutely wins in sophistication and technology but at what cost? Need to apply the KISS principal (keep it simple stupid) and realize most everything the coyote does could have been achieved with a much simpler design. And I emphasize the COULD HAVE part of that last statement.
     
  7. Jmk

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    Ford says old ways, old timers? I was 36 when I bought my GT350. I would think that is prime market but what do I know. They also say it’s happening if we like it or not. That is their right, it’s their product. You or I don’t have to buy their product. I’m due for a new daily and was seriously looking at the new explorer now I’m not sure if I want to give ford my money. Ford needs to tread carefully. That’s what happened we when you alienate your loyal fans. This might hurt them more than they think
     
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  8. CrashOverride

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    I know exactly what you're saying re: KISS. In my head I'm thinking the only plausible explanation of why Ford would want to continue working with the existing 5.0 engine (Other than just plain being too cheap to change the bore centers) would be to avoid larger-engine taxes. Suppose they want 500HP NA for the next Mustang. If they are limited to 5L (Be it from taxes) then it would be pretty hard to do it on a pushrod motor. Not impossible for sure, but spinning a street engine fast enough to get 500HP on 2 valves (plus meeting emissions) would be difficult, especially for an emissions cam and a stock/cast (not CNC' or hand ported) head.

    I just find it hard to believe that Ford will continue to crank out the Coyote for trucks. And once they kick the coyote out of the truck, it will be the death rattle for the Mustang. That's why I think the 7.3L OHV gasser they just made will end up cast in aluminum, and end up in a F150 as a 5.8L to make the cherished 351 live on. I say Aluminum because Ford is going out of their way to control weight on light duty trucks, and there is no way they would put a cast iron block in a truck they are using aluminum body panels in. With some really good heads, or going with w 3V forked setup like they did before, they might be able to hit 500 NA HP out of 5.8L, but I personally think they would have to be playing in the same 6.2-6.4L sandbox that GM and FCA are in. GM learned that spending a lot of money into designing a great head that is easy to cast is how you win the battle. Then you can use cheap (and less) engine parts (Not crappy, but just cheaper to produce) to make power.

    If my memory is correct, the Mustang started with a 289 because that's what Ford had when they had the Falcon. And the Mustang was designed by Iacocca to be cheap for "kids" so they didn't plan on dumping a lot of money into making a larger engine just for this "toy" (Or so they thought!). Then engine sizes got bigger, then the fuel crisis hit, engine sizes went down, and the 302 became the engine that shouldered on through the decade of 70's garbage. When the 80's rolled around, if I'm not mistaken there was a 5L limit on the IROC racing series, and that's why Ford never went bigger. Chevrolet "cheated" by calling a 305 a 5L, but they needed all the help they could get because the 305 was a utter piece of junk (I know, I had two of them). From there the Mod motor was designed for a FWD lincoln, and they went smaller bores and smaller bore spacing because they had to (in their minds) fit it sideways in a FWD car. They dumped all that money into the production lines, and that pesky 100mm bore spacing still plagues them today.
     
  9. EcoVert

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    Probably true my friends have silverados
     
  10. Norm Peterson

    Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter

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    The data is what it is, but it doesn't mean anything until it is properly interpreted. Right now all we really have is an educated guess, of uncertain accuracy at best.

    Even a millennium is but a snapshot given the [estimated] age of the Earth. What happens within any hundred years or so may be significant relative to that millennium, while still only being noise in the overall scheme. I'm not saying it has to be that way, just noting that it could.

    I'm sure that humans do bear some responsibility. Some. For all we know, human activity over the last couple of centuries only amounted to the proverbial "last straw" that started tipping the balance. Maybe we were headed there regardless, perhaps human population is already beyond what the Earth can sustain at any recent standard of living.


    Norm
     
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  11. GreenS550

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    Us older motorheads never, ever thought we would see a 300 cubic inch engine make the power the Coyote does. Never. Times change. The flathead went out. The ohv engine came in. The ohv with pushrods went out (at least for companies that saw the future, like Ford). Now it seems that the turbos are in. As are the new electric vehicles which I believe will be a bust. I can state that the tt in my Explorer sport with a tune is lightning fast. Really. I can take most new muscle cars up to 50 or so. I want the v8, but a tt 3 liter Mustang will be very, very fast especially if they awd it.
     
  12. Ericc B

    Ericc B Well-Known Member

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    Most countries have moved to CO2 emission as the base for taxation, but like Ace said there are immense differences. In Germany and the UK for example there is no such thing as 'new vehicle tax' (apart from sales tax, which btw is on average 20% in Europe) but in countries like Norway, Danmark and Netherlands there is a new vehicle tax (on top of the 20% sales tax) which is heavily influenced by the emissions. On a small 95 gram CO2 3 cylinder 1 liter engine it might be 2.000 euro, but the increase for bigger engines is insane. I have 2016 GT and the tax on that was 60,000 euro, which is roughly $66,000. On a GT350 it's around 100,000 euro. Norway and Danmark are even worse.

    Besides all this madness upcoming EU legislation is limiting the average amount of CO2 emission allowed for new cars to under 100 grams which is insanely low. Manufacturers will have to pay hefty fines for every gram that their fleet on average is above that times times the number of cars sold. So for example for every 300 gram emitting Mustang GT Ford Europe sells it will also have to sell 2 BEV's to compensate. Which obviously is bananas since BEV vehicles are far from CO2 emission free, but that's another discussion. These new regulations will significantly raise the costs per vehicle and prices for us end consumers and Ford has already announced behind the screens that they will vastly limit the amount of Mustang GT's that they will be importing here in the future. Which means higher prices for us for sure.

    That is correct. Pedestrian protection is a very important part of the Euro Ncap safety rating. If you don't work it into your design properly the car will never qualify for a 5 star rating.
     
  13. Hack

    Hack Well-Known Member

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    I have an open enough mind to accept evidence. Is there evidence that the climate change theories/predictions are correct or are you accepting it on faith? There is a lot of evidence of ties between climate change theories, big business and politicians. Can you accept that information, or do you deny it?
     
  14. Hack

    Hack Well-Known Member

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    I remember seeing the evidence of ice cores. The study I saw looked at CO2 content in the atmosphere during various times in the past and also within the same ice core showed whether the temperatures were high and low. And the higher temperatures did NOT correlate with higher CO2 concentrations.

    So those that think CO2 and temperatures are linked have a problem with that evidence and they have been trying to disprove it. Rather than accepting evidence with an open mind and using it to guide actions, many are more interested in disproving the evidence. Why is this?

    Also, many people who used to talk about global warming now say climate change and say that storms are now worse because of human activity. I see a pattern. Basically people aren't scared enough by global warming threats, so these people try to come up with a bigger and scarier threat. And I bet this will continue to occur, because the goal has nothing to do with the climate. It's all about gaining political control.

    More evidence to support my theory is that right before the global warming scare, the same people were talking about global COOLING. But the public wasn't scared enough by that, so they came up with something different.
     
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  15. bootlegger

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    This thread is a fine collection of science denial, speculation, auto industry "rumor", and emotional chest pumping.
     
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