Is it a real Shelby? Interesting update

[svttim]

I want to be very careful here because we all have opinions and none of us have a patent on the truth, and that includes me.

Lets leave the classics aside for a moment. The Shelby GT and the Shelby GT500KR were both fantastic cars. Both had some issues but they were considered minor by most. We will tolerate less then perfect when it comes to performance. Some of the parts for those cars came out of a prison. A laudable project not without its problems. The KR was limited in many ways, not by Shelby American but by Ford. Shelby wanted to put more power in the car and more aggressive aero. Ford wins.

Fast forward to today. Shelby no longer wants to deal with parts delays so, they reach out to very reputable company's to supply quality parts. Those parts are made to be functional. Some think that's cheesy and so be it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Along comes the Ford version of the Shelby. Shelby can't compete with the engineers and deep pockets of Ford. They cant buy thousands of parts to build thousands of cars. Bottom line, they can't compete with the GT350 on a level playing field. Having said that, being able to test the Shelby GT on track for a magazine, I can tell you, it is a very strong performer. Now, I have not driven the GT350 back to back with the Shelby but, IMHO the GT will hang with the 350. My reason for buying the GT350 was a simple matter of cost and value. That is where the GT falls short. But its hard to fault Shelby American because they don't have the purchasing power that Ford does. Shelby is trying to negotiate through change that others have struggled with as well. Roush is a great name as well and does great stuff, but the GT350.........

Now, circling back to the 65. Looking at the parts list, please tell me what was different from what Shelby is doing today and what was done then. Most of the parts were straight out of the Falcon racing program. Carroll was not especially excited about working with the Mustang at all. All of the other parts were made by other companies as well. The engineering was great because of the talented people Carroll employed. The drivers were first rate and they were always looking for more. The one missing piece in my mind is competition, the only thing different in the two programs 50 years apart.

So, what was Carroll's role, he was the one that put it all together, made all the pieces fit and gel. If you cant respect that then nothing anyone says will have an effect. Carroll was a leader!

I do have to say, this group is the best I have ever dealt with. Respectful, knowledgeable and lots of insight

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[oldmachguy]

History Repeats Itself

This family infighting is history repeating itself.

By 1967, Shelbys were morphing into more of a muscle car / boulevard blisterer, instead of a street legal SCCA racer.

When Ford took over production of Shelby Mustangs for 1968 (and subbed out the mods to Detroit area A.O. Smith), that was, for many purists, the end of "real" Shelbys.

No one would suggest that the cars from SVO, SVT, or Ford Performance would have been better or more special if they had been sent pre-title to a hot rod shop - nowadays nothing can compete with factory engineering.

Personally, I'm blown away by what Ford has done, and continues to do. I was amazed that I could go to my dealer and drive away with a fuel injected, all-aluminum, 4V, DOHC powered Mustang Mach 1, for $24,000 - because in my formative car years ('60's - '70's) that was the most exotic of the exotic. Now we have an FPC, magneride suspension, carbon fiber wheel production car. Wow. Just wow.

In today's world, where 600 - 800 rwhp daily drivers are common, you can (and should, in my view) totally forget about whose jones is bigger, and get the car that YOU like to look at and drive. Car guys and gals are living in great times.

 

[1966 Sunbeam Tiger]

My 66 Sunbeam Tiger which was created in Shelby's shop in 1963 as a prototype and then mass produced in England is more Shelby than anything with the Shelby name on it today.

Shelby received a royalty from Rootes for every Tiger produced.

 

[oldmachguy]

My 66 Sunbeam Tiger which was created in Shelby's shop in 1963 as a prototype and then mass produced in England is more Shelby than anything with the Shelby name on it today.

Shelby received a royalty from Rootes for every Tiger produced.

Sunbeam Tigers are such awesome cars.

My college roommate had one, which he still owns. Riding shotgun at 90 mph going over a bridge, with him upshifting at 7000 rpm, was insane - since he was "trying to keep his speed up" so the rain wouldn't come into the cockpit. :lol: It's like PTSD - that's what I think of when I see Maxwell Smart pulling up to work in that red Tiger.

 

[bdub85]

Is a Ford really a Ford since Henry Ford passed away?

 

[oldmachguy]

A Ford is still at the helm

Is a Ford really a Ford since Henry Ford passed away?

Ford's Executive Chariman: William "Bill" Clay Ford, Jr., great-grandson of Henry Ford:

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/people/william-clay-ford--jr-.html

 

[CSL]

I have to say, I was so jazzed to see Shelby partner with Ford again last decade. But, for me, the perceived exclusivity and variations of packages (pre-title/post-title) reduced exclusivity and made the brand harder to identify. Is it a Shelby or is it not? I once had a well-known SA employee ask me if I thought my GT500 was really a Shelby. He didn't.....this was pre-2010. Prior to that I thought it was an unequivocal yes, which I was proud of. That question got me thinking, and my conclusion was that my "Ford" Shelby didn't need all the bolt-on performance at a premium price that I could do myself and tailor to my liking/needs. Then, on top of that, I certainly was not into all the high priced cosmetics. I decided that if those relatively minor performance upgrades, which anyone could source on their own, with an appearance package at a sticker shock price had become what a Shelby "is", then that was a bit blasphemous and I didn't want any part of it. Unfortunately, for many people this is now the perception of the brand. Simply put, the performance and value is not there as it should be. As a business model for SA, my hope was Ford would make a damn good platform for the masses and then a small portion would be sent by Ford to SA to make it that much better for the minority. As an example, just for comparison, the standard 350 could be the Ford platform and the R could be the Shelby version. That is something I would spend the money for provided the price remained within the universe.

The SA approach was about capitalizing on the hype at the time to make as much money as possible. That is understandable but not a sustainable business model. That ship has passed and their decisions over the last 10 years has caused their relevance to wane. Btw, stangsunleashed that turned into teamshelby was my go-to site for many years.....I haven't visited that site in years.

I hoped Ford would stop using "Shelby" as a name only and am kind of disappointed my 350 has the name on it. They don't need to use it anymore...everybody gets that it's the badass Mustang. I wish Shelby was the only one using their name, have them decide what that name should represent, and then have the market decide it's value.

 

[bdub85]

Ford's Executive Chariman: William "Bill" Clay Ford, Jr., great-grandson of Henry Ford:

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/people/william-clay-ford--jr-.html

And? He's still not Henry Ford.

 

[PP0001]

Now, circling back to the 65. Looking at the parts list, please tell me what was different from what Shelby is doing today and what was done then. Most of the parts were straight out of the Falcon racing program. Carroll was not especially excited about working with the Mustang at all. All of the other parts were made by other companies as well. The engineering was great because of the talented people Carroll employed. The drivers were first rate and they were always looking for more. The one missing piece in my mind is competition, the only thing different in the two programs 50 years apart.

So, what was Carroll's role, he was the one that put it all together, made all the pieces fit and gel. If you cant respect that then nothing anyone says will have an effect. Carroll was a leader!

Tim, I certainly appreciate your comments but from my standpoint as a long time Ford and Shelby enthusiast and hopefully you will agree that todays scenario is vastly different than some 50 years ago and there is one major difference that I see today.

Back in the summer of 1964 when Carroll was developing the '65 Shelby GT350 in their original Venice plant location him and his team as you mentioned did not have any competition and specifically did not compete with the Ford Motor Company and in fact they helped to enhance and compliment the new '65 2+2 Mustang Fastback that could now be ordered with the high performance K code 289. Even though it is my understanding their relationship with Ford was never perfect I suggest that for the most part everyone got along pretty well based on working on a common goal and that was to produce an upgraded Mustang that could provide new power, flashy looks and hopefully obtain some racing victories in the very near future with this new GT350. Obviously it was a good partnership with a common goal.

One of the biggest differences that I see today compared to back in the day is that Shelby American and Ford are for the most part competing for much of the same market share when it comes to high performance Mustang enthusiasts and increased sales volumes of these high performance Mustangs. Here you have Shelby American building Shelby Mustangs in Las Vegas and over in Flat Rock we have Ford building Shelby Mustangs at the same time. You don't think that this issue confuses a lot of young and new people interested in purchasing new generation Shelby Mustangs? It is obvious that both SA and Ford are in competition with each other and that was not the case back in the mid 60's.

The other looming difference that I recognize in today's market place compared to back in the day comes down to pricing. Can we compare labor and material costs from the '60's to todays marketplace, probably not.

Having said that back in 1965 the selling price of a nicely equipped '65 Mustang 2+2 Fastback with a K code engine, rally pack, disc brakes and styled steel wheels had an MSRP of $3728.00. The price of a '65 Shelby GT 350 during that same time period had an MSRP $4547.00 or approximately a 22% increase over the price of the '65 K code Mustang.

We all know that Shelby American produces a great product but you and I both know that any Shelby Mustang coming out of Las Vegas will not be anywhere close to a 22% upcharge and that to me is where they have a big disadvantage and cannot compete with Ford and the likes of the new Shelby GT350/GT350R.

For myself and many of my Mustang car buddies it is hard to justify the kind of money it takes to fund a new Shelby Mustang coming out of Las Vegas and I suggest that you are just another example of what I am talking about?

 

[84venom]

I'm sure I missed a bunch of stuff on the new Shelby as well. I was also comparing the street versions, not "R" models. Several items you list are R only...

Really!

Such as what items??:shrug:

I suggest that you do your homework before you make claims that you cannot back up regarding the '65 models.

Based on your comments no use going any further because you have all of the answers and chances are you weren't even around like many of us older enthusiasts when this great car came out!

:frusty::frusty:

I stand corrected. I think i saw some discussion about the plexiglass window and mistookm it for yours. Interesting though, only a small percentage of the early shelbys had the battery relocated. I thought only the Rs got that, and that explains why... Also, I was really only interested in items that made a difference in performance, not so much badges and trim.

That said, I still think that the new cars deviate further from their "stock" GT siblings. Yes, technology has come a long way, allowing for more significant advances. When you boil it down, the new cars have the added benefit of an entirely new engine and advanced aerodynamics ( hood, fenders, spoilers, etc. ). Otherwise, the formula is basically the same, but with 50 years of development in between....:ford:

 

[Spa2k]

[Quote: It is obvious that both SA and Ford are in competition...]

I do not believe this is true, for a couple of reasons. First, I had no interest in a Mustang modified in Las Vegas with what to my eye were tacked-on parts; the level of engineering cannot match that of the GT 350. Second, the price point of the Shelby-produced car is absurd; the value is not there for me, and I never considered it. In fact, Shelby Las Vegas seems to be going the direction of Saleen, Roush and similar aftermarket companies; that's not a criticism of people interested in those types of vehicles - just an observation.

 

[oldmachguy]

Now, circling back to the 65. Looking at the parts list, please tell me what was different from what Shelby is doing today and what was done then . . .

Shelby drilled the shock towers and remounted the A-arms lower.

Shelby fabricated override traction bars, and cut holes in the floor pans to mount them.

Shelby relocated the battery to the trunk - which required relocating the spare tire , including removing the spare tire hold down bracket, and welding it where the back seat had been.

Shelby had a fiberglass "package tray" fabricated to go where the back seat had been, and to hold the spare tire (the fiberglass protruded into the trunk).

Pretty nifty stuff, really all so he could race B Production in SCCA, to keep more money coming from Ford. The guys in the Venice shop said the GT350 was the "shit" project - as compared to the Cobras, Daytona Coupe's and GT40's.

So, what was Carroll's role, he was the one that put it all together, made all the pieces fit and gel. If you cant respect that then nothing anyone says will have an effect. Carroll was a leader!

He always was a snake oil salesman, but MUCHO RESPECT.

 

[PP0001]

[Quote: It is obvious that both SA and Ford are in competition...]

I do not believe this is true, for a couple of reasons. First, I had no interest in a Mustang modified in Las Vegas with what to my eye were tacked-on parts; the level of engineering cannot match that of the GT 350. Second, the price point of the Shelby-produced car is absurd; the value is not there for me, and I never considered it. In fact, Shelby Las Vegas seems to be going the direction of Saleen, Roush and similar aftermarket companies; that's not a criticism of people interested in those types of vehicles - just an observation.

I certainly respect your opinion and agree with pretty much all you mentioned especially the price point of their cars but at the end of the day all of these tuner companies are in competition for our Mustang business and it just happens that you and I agree that we want to spend our money on a factory built Ford Motor Company GT350 and not a tuner car from people such as SA, Roush, Saleen or Kenny Brown.

I have a couple of car buddies that have new Roush Mustangs and respect them for their decision but certainly not the path I would ever go especially from an investment standpoint.

Increased horsepower or not a Ford built GT350/GT350R will hold a much better value all day long many years from now.

:cheers:

 

[svttim]

Now, circling back to the 65. Looking at the parts list, please tell me what was different from what Shelby is doing today and what was done then. Most of the parts were straight out of the Falcon racing program. Carroll was not especially excited about working with the Mustang at all. All of the other parts were made by other companies as well. The engineering was great because of the talented people Carroll employed. The drivers were first rate and they were always looking for more. The one missing piece in my mind is competition, the only thing different in the two programs 50 years apart.

So, what was Carroll's role, he was the one that put it all together, made all the pieces fit and gel. If you cant respect that then nothing anyone says will have an effect. Carroll was a leader!

Tim, I certainly appreciate your comments but from my standpoint as a long time Ford and Shelby enthusiast and hopefully you will agree that todays scenario is vastly different than some 50 years ago and there is one major difference that I see today.

Back in the summer of 1964 when Carroll was developing the '65 Shelby GT350 in their original Venice plant location him and his team as you mentioned did not have any competition and specifically did not compete with the Ford Motor Company and in fact they helped to enhance and compliment the new '65 2+2 Mustang Fastback that could now be ordered with the high performance K code 289. Even though it is my understanding their relationship with Ford was never perfect I suggest that for the most part everyone got along pretty well based on working on a common goal and that was to produce an upgraded Mustang that could provide new power, flashy looks and hopefully obtain some racing victories in the very near future with this new GT350. Obviously it was a good partnership with a common goal.

One of the biggest differences that I see today compared to back in the day is that Shelby American and Ford are for the most part competing for much of the same market share when it comes to high performance Mustang enthusiasts and increased sales volumes of these high performance Mustangs. Here you have Shelby American building Shelby Mustangs in Las Vegas and over in Flat Rock we have Ford building Shelby Mustangs at the same time. You don't think that this issue confuses a lot of young and new people interested in purchasing new generation Shelby Mustangs? It is obvious that both SA and Ford are in competition with each other and that was not the case back in the mid 60's.

The other looming difference that I recognize in today's market place compared to back in the day comes down to pricing. Can we compare labor and material costs from the '60's to todays marketplace, probably not.

Having said that back in 1965 the selling price of a nicely equipped '65 Mustang 2+2 Fastback with a K code engine, rally pack, disc brakes and styled steel wheels had an MSRP of $3728.00. The price of a '65 Shelby GT 350 during that same time period had an MSRP $4547.00 or approximately a 22% increase over the price of the '65 K code Mustang.

We all know that Shelby American produces a great product but you and I both know that any Shelby Mustang coming out of Las Vegas will not be anywhere close to a 22% upcharge and that to me is where they have a big disadvantage and cannot compete with Ford and the likes of the new Shelby GT350/GT350R.

For myself and many of my Mustang car buddies it is hard to justify the kind of money it takes to fund a new Shelby Mustang coming out of Las Vegas and I suggest that you are just another example of what I am talking about?

Absolutely agree. This is a very complicated issue.

To add to that complication, you have Shelby American in Vegas and Shelby International in Los Angeles. One works directly with Ford, the other not so much.

Add the Government regulations which pretty much kills anyone from building a car like the original GT350.

Ford has made it much harder with the quality of the build and the performance value only they can pull off

Yes, I am an example. I like the Shelby cars but, I just don't see the performance equal the dollars. I will say, they do tend to retain value then stock or most of the other builders though. I respect the COO and I always have said, he's responsible for the outcome so he gets to make the decisions, good or bad

 

[Old Car Guy]

In my....

In my book, I'm sure Carroll Shelby would have given a thumbs up on this new GT350 thanks Carroll Shelby, and Ford. :cheers:

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