Is Ford lacking on performance?

[nastang87xx]

So...the point I think we've all come to conclude is buy the car that fits your needs regardless of brand. HOLY VAGINAL JUICE SOAKED WEIN, WHAT A CONCEPT! These what if coulda shoulda woulda threads are getting beyond old. addle:

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[Norm Peterson]

A regular Mustang isn't a track car. Never was, and isn't now. They're GTs, Grand Touring cars, not sports cars, not track cars, not drag cars. If you want to go to the track, you buy the right tool for the job, or modify what you have.

This isn't a thing, at all.

If they're going to pitch it with option package names like 'Performance Pack', the package ought to live up to its billing. At least do a better job of it than seems to have been the usual case (prior to release of the PP2, anyway).

Nobody expects an all-out track toy at the GT's level. Just a dual-purpose car that isn't going to be eaten alive out on the track in showroom stock form by its equally stock competition.


Norm

 

[jake_zx2]

If they're going to pitch it with option package names like 'Performance Pack', the package ought to live up to its billing. At least do a better job of it than seems to have been the usual case (prior to release of the PP2, anyway).
Does it not give the car a bump in performance? To me, it lives up to the name just fine. It's a performance package, not a track package.
Nobody expects an all-out track toy at the GT's level. Just a dual-purpose car that isn't going to be eaten alive out on the track in showroom stock form by its equally stock competition.
So, by those standards, Ford is doing fine with the cars they're building. All of the mustang configurations compete just fine with its competition.

Norm

Red

 

[JohnD]

Red

Apparently you missed the SS 1LE kicking the azz of the PP1 Mustang?

 

[jake_zx2]

Nope, PP1 isn't meant to compete with the 1LE... that's what PP2 is for. PP1 is meant to compete with the standard SS, which it does just fine with

 

[Eritas]

Nope, PP1 isn't meant to compete with the 1LE... that's what PP2 is for. PP1 is meant to compete with the standard SS, which it does just fine with

Maybe for a few laps until PP2 goes into limp mode and the 1LE (or even SS) just keeps chugging along with no issues. Heat is a major problem down south. I'm not sure how relevant it is in Germany.

 

[carlg]

Nope, PP1 isn't meant to compete with the 1LE... that's what PP2 is for. PP1 is meant to compete with the standard SS, which it does just fine with

So if PP1 is meant to compete against the standard SS, then what is the Base 5.0 Mustang GT meant to compete with??

My understanding has always been:

Base/Premium 5.0 GT --> 1SS/2SS
PP1/PP2 --> 1LE
GT500 --> ZL1
GT350/Boss --> Z28

I could be wrong. Please correct me if so!

 

[millhouse]

Maybe for a few laps until PP2 goes into limp mode and the 1LE (or even SS) just keeps chugging along with no issues. Heat is a major problem down south. I'm not sure how relevant it is in Germany.

I think it's going to take more than a few laps. The MT82 transmission should not overheat as easily as the non TP GT350. The rear end however will.

So if PP1 is meant to compete against the standard SS, then what is the Base 5.0 Mustang GT meant to compete with??

My understanding has always been:

Base/Premium 5.0 GT --> 1SS/2SS
PP1/PP2 --> 1LE
GT500 --> ZL1
GT350/Boss --> Z28

I could be wrong. Please correct me if so!

The base GT doesn't have anything to directly compete with. An entry level mustang comes with smaller wheels and all-season tires. The SS comes with wide, summer tires only. GM people will puff their chests and claim superiority that their entry level V8 is superior to Fords offering, but in all reality...they lack a true entry level V8. They essentially kill any chance of a cold-weather individual purchasing one for a daily driver in the wintertime.

GM knows this, that's why they plan on removing content from the SS and lessening components to better compete with the entry price-point of the GT. The PP1 has always better aligned component and tire wise with the SS...and Ford has historically sold a ton of them.

For some reason, we try to force cross-vehicle alignment when often there is overlap.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Does it not give the car a bump in performance? To me, it lives up to the name just fine. It's a performance package, not a track package.

Let's just say that the there have been questions about the PP1 being less than fully developed since the beginning. And while you could argue that a small bump in performance would still qualify the contents as being a "performance package", it's still akin to bragging about cold air kits and axle-back exhaust swaps as being serious performance upgrades.

So, by those standards, Ford is doing fine with the cars they're building. All of the mustang configurations compete just fine with its competition.

Not really, unless you're willing to agree that the PP1 is at the very best about midway between the non-1LE SS and the SS/1LE. The PP1 was over a second and a half slower around MT's H2H track than the 5th gen 1LE, so it didn't even hit the target everybody should have known enough to aim it at if they were going to be more than lip-service serious about the word 'performance'.

Perhaps they compete just fine in terms of percentage-of-total-sales in the marketplace, but that's not what performance comparisons are about. That three second deficit around the road course is roughly comparable to losing at the dragstrip by about half a second and over five car lengths.


We're hoping that the PP2 will at least run even with the 6th gen SS/1LE. Although if it does manage to pull that off, we should expect to hear comments about having to drop down to 180-treadwear tires to make it happen (and get into an endless argument over that).


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

The base GT doesn't have anything to directly compete with.
...
For some reason, we try to force cross-vehicle alignment when often there is overlap.

Agreed, unless you look wider than at only the Camaro's SS-level.
I think it lines up closer to this ↓↓↓, at least in terms of corner-carving performance. Maybe it's more of an "offset" than overlap?

Base/Premium GT ==> base V6 Camaro
-------------------------- base SS Camaro
GT/PP1 ------------------------------------
--------------------------- 5th gen SS/1LE
GT/PP2------------------- 6th gen SS/1LE (I'm hoping for parity here)

The 5th gen 1LE was a "2%-er's car" from the get-go. PP1 was always more of a 30%-er's car, with fewer compromises in daily driving paid for with lower performance.


Norm

 

[millhouse]

Agreed, unless you look wider than at only the Camaro's SS-level.
I think it lines up closer to this ↓↓↓, at least in terms of corner-carving performance. Maybe it's more of an "offset" than overlap?

Base/Premium GT ==> base V6 Camaro
-------------------------- base SS Camaro
GT/PP1 ------------------------------------
--------------------------- 5th gen SS/1LE
GT/PP2------------------- 6th gen SS/1LE (I'm hoping for parity here)

The 5th gen 1LE was a "2%-er's car" from the get-go. PP1 was always more of a 30%-er's car, with fewer compromises in daily driving paid for with lower performance.


Norm

I would position the overlaps more like this...

Mustang-----Camaro

None--------4cyl
4cyl---------6cyl
4cylPP1-----None
None--------6cyl 1LE
GT-----------None
GTPP1-------SS
GTPP2-------1LE
Bullitt--------None
GT350-------None
GT350R----- None
GT500-------ZL1
None-------- ZL1 1LE

There is a bit of overlap between a few, but that is as close of an alignment I think one could make. This mind you isn't in regards to just handling, but all around performance. The 4Cyl PP1 very well might time better than the GT around some tracks, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking people are cross shopping the two much.

Camaro owners are going to bitch that the 1LE aligns with the GT350....I say bullshit. I don't care what the track numbers are, the 1LE has the same boring LT engine as the SS. The GT350 is truly something "more special".

 

[BmacIL]

I would position the overlaps more like this...

Mustang-----Camaro

None--------4cyl
4cyl---------6cyl
4cylPP1-----None
None--------6cyl 1LE
GT-----------None
GTPP1-------SS
GTPP2-------1LE
Bullitt--------None
GT350-------None
GT350R----- None
GT500-------ZL1
None-------- ZL1 1LE

There is a bit of overlap between a few, but that is as close of an alignment I think one could make. This mind you isn't in regards to just handling, but all around performance. The 4Cyl PP1 very well might time better than the GT around some tracks, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking people are cross shopping the two much.

Camaro owners are going to bitch that the 1LE aligns with the GT350....I say bullshit. I don't care what the track numbers are, the 1LE has the same boring LT engine as the SS. The GT350 is truly something "more special".

I would agree with all of this.

 

[howlins550]

Yes, Ford absolutely prioritizes daily usability and comfort over maximizing performance in their passenger cars. Crazy, huh? ;)

and thats not what im complaining about, its the fact that you give all these track focused options that appeal to people for track use, then leave out things that would allow it to be used in the manner of which youre advertising

 

[millhouse]

and thats not what im complaining about, its the fact that you give all these track focused options that appeal to people for track use, then leave out things that would allow it to be used in the manner of which youre advertising

The PP1 is a more track compliant car than the GT. It has the brakes, suspension tweaks, torsen diff and summer tires to make it a better option for occasional track use. It's label as a performance pack is spot on. It is not, nor has it ever been billed as a track terror.

Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is. People who frequent the track are going to do frequent fluid changes, swap out the brake fluid, brake pads and tires. Why is it such a big deal to add on a transmission cooler scoop or an diff cooler? I bet there is less than 10 people in this forum that actually NEED the above mentioned. The rest just complain that the camaro has it and the mustang doesn't.

 

[Norm Peterson]

When the PP1 debuted, it was claiming to be the GT's top-shelf option in all respects. It wasn't in at least three respects (wheels, tires, and damping), and it got its clock cleaned as a result. Simply put, it didn't live up to its implied billing.

9" wide front wheels and 255/xx tires haven't been top-shelf corner-carving choices since the Fox/SN95. For 9.5" wheels, call it not since the earliest S197's.


Norm

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