HOW???

[200MPHCOBRA]

I get you dislike the huge (ish) gap in estimated weight between the ats v pre and post production. However, it still performs to the estimates of performance.



12.06 bone stock a8 ats v. It is beating the performance estimate of 12.3. So even with the weight difference, they still met their performance targets. Same is for the cts v. The corvette meets its performance target as well. There are 2 instances of the platform the camaro is based on along with the engine in another platform meeting the performance targets put in place for them. That's the best we have until customer times come out. How can the camaro not be up to par, or so far out, that it will miss its performance targets and not run a 12.2?

I'm not a GM fanboy, not a Ford fanboy, I'm a car fanboy. I don't see how the real world times the mustang is putting out won't be beat by the camaro, handedly. This goes by the evidence of the ats v, cts v, and corvette.

That pass is an example of how mph is tied to horsepower, and et is how well you put it to the ground. The 114 is the limit, but ET is very variable. If you see a 122, you know something fishy is going on.

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[thePill]

Your loss if true lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Until Team Camaro releases the 6th Gen's nomenclature and a weight loss listing, we simply cannot verify any of this. Unfortunately, thePill may be waiting for a press release that doesn't exist.

Before thePill's shakedown of the ATS-V, simply proving the Camaro lost 15lbs over the V would have been an easy task. However, it would have made my case far harder to prove. I'm not really sure why Caddy actually updated the numbers. Perhaps honesty was priority and the 3700lbs estimate was just wrong. Nevertheless, there were still test and head to heads conducted in 3700-3750lbs ATS-V's and the initial test numbers did reflect a lower weight... even the 12.1@122mph stunk of tampering. In the final H2H at Laguna Seca, the V performed just as good as the base '12 Boss 302.


What Chevy needs to do now?

They need to somehow keep the Camaro's Body in White at 620-640lbs. This isn't impossible... but the cards are definitely stack against them... Just looking at the literature already released, the ATS-V is about as light as the Alpha gets. Starting at 685lbs, we believe the V's Alpha Coupe gained a few pounds to support the V function. The base CTS BIW weighs 715lbs... we believe the ATS-V Coupe to be around 700-720lbs.

Using the 133lbs loss, we figure the 6th Gen Camaro to be around S197 weight in the BIW. Between 750-770lbs. We thought about the possibility of Chevy going beyond 133lbs after the announcement was made. However, we still question if any new weight loss techniques actually exist... The likelihood that the V's would have already adopted these methods are extremely high. It also appears as if the 140lbs of savings cost them next to nothing...


So, a sub-3700lbs SS can happen... but the likelihood of it actually happening are the same as seeing a 3700lbs Fully Loaded GTPP Premium or a 3700lbs Fully Loaded ATS-V Coupe/Sedan...

In my opinion, downsizing the brakes on the SS wasn't worth it. It was also a poor decision to leave the Convertible/1LE/z28 reinforcement out of the base structure only to rely solely on sub-frame connectors... I'm not sure how difficult it would be to reconfigure the structure at this point...

It all comes down to the BIW and 68 seems to think the magic rest in the Aluminum crush cans that can be removed. I haven't seen what he's talking about first hand but I have an idea what he's talking about. I have reason to believe some of the weight loss magic is happening at the sub-frame level AND, the decision to use the ATS's aluminum suspension or the CTS's steel construction. In other words, it's all 3 areas that have the SS's weight in check. We have seen an SS at MT missing the sub-frame reinforcement... maybe 30-40lbs of metal was missing.

Anyway, thePill doesn't need some sort of personal gain to continue... so, with that in mind, thePill can never lose. We did force Caddy's hand somewhat and that does make it difficult for Team Camaro when advertising a 3670lbs SS yet they can't prove to the public where they lost the 140lbs.

 

[ZaneWayne]

Until Team Camaro releases the 6th Gen's nomenclature and a weight loss listing, we simply cannot verify any of this. Unfortunately, thePill may be waiting for a press release that doesn't exist.

Before thePill's shakedown of the ATS-V, simply proving the Camaro lost 15lbs over the V would have been an easy task. However, it would have made my case far harder to prove. I'm not really sure why Caddy actually updated the numbers. Perhaps honesty was priority and the 3700lbs estimate was just wrong. Nevertheless, there were still test and head to heads conducted in 3700-3750lbs ATS-V's and the initial test numbers did reflect a lower weight... even the 12.1@122mph stunk of tampering. In the final H2H at Laguna Seca, the V performed just as good as the base '12 Boss 302.


What Chevy needs to do now?

They need to somehow keep the Camaro's Body in White at 620-640lbs. This isn't impossible... but the cards are definitely stack against them... Just looking at the literature already released, the ATS-V is about as light as the Alpha gets. Starting at 685lbs, we believe the V's Alpha Coupe gained a few pounds to support the V function. The base CTS BIW weighs 715lbs... we believe the ATS-V Coupe to be around 700-720lbs.

Using the 133lbs loss, we figure the 6th Gen Camaro to be around S197 weight in the BIW. Between 750-770lbs. We thought about the possibility of Chevy going beyond 133lbs after the announcement was made. However, we still question if any new weight loss techniques actually exist... The likelihood that the V's would have already adopted these methods are extremely high. It also appears as if the 140lbs of savings cost them next to nothing...


So, a sub-3700lbs SS can happen... but the likelihood of it actually happening are the same as seeing a 3700lbs Fully Loaded GTPP Premium or a 3700lbs Fully Loaded ATS-V Coupe/Sedan...

In my opinion, downsizing the brakes on the SS wasn't worth it. It was also a poor decision to leave the Convertible/1LE/z28 reinforcement out of the base structure only to rely solely on sub-frame connectors... I'm not sure how difficult it would be to reconfigure the structure at this point...

It all comes down to the BIW and 68 seems to think the magic rest in the Aluminum crush cans that can be removed. I haven't seen what he's talking about first hand but I have an idea what he's talking about. I have reason to believe some of the weight loss magic is happening at the sub-frame level AND, the decision to use the ATS's aluminum suspension or the CTS's steel construction. In other words, it's all 3 areas that have the SS's weight in check. We have seen an SS at MT missing the sub-frame reinforcement... maybe 30-40lbs of metal was missing.

Anyway, thePill doesn't need some sort of personal gain to continue... so, with that in mind, thePill can never lose. We did force Caddy's hand somewhat and that does make it difficult for Team Camaro when advertising a 3670lbs SS yet they can't prove to the public where they lost the 140lbs.

So I can't help but think that you know you are wrong when it comes to the weight, so you are already setting up your fall back.......;)

 

[DiMaio90]

Until Team Camaro releases the 6th Gen's nomenclature and a weight loss listing, we simply cannot verify any of this. Unfortunately, thePill may be waiting for a press release that doesn't exist.

Before thePill's shakedown of the ATS-V, simply proving the Camaro lost 15lbs over the V would have been an easy task. However, it would have made my case far harder to prove. I'm not really sure why Caddy actually updated the numbers. Perhaps honesty was priority and the 3700lbs estimate was just wrong. Nevertheless, there were still test and head to heads conducted in 3700-3750lbs ATS-V's and the initial test numbers did reflect a lower weight... even the 12.1@122mph stunk of tampering. In the final H2H at Laguna Seca, the V performed just as good as the base '12 Boss 302.


What Chevy needs to do now?

They need to somehow keep the Camaro's Body in White at 620-640lbs. This isn't impossible... but the cards are definitely stack against them... Just looking at the literature already released, the ATS-V is about as light as the Alpha gets. Starting at 685lbs, we believe the V's Alpha Coupe gained a few pounds to support the V function. The base CTS BIW weighs 715lbs... we believe the ATS-V Coupe to be around 700-720lbs.

Using the 133lbs loss, we figure the 6th Gen Camaro to be around S197 weight in the BIW. Between 750-770lbs. We thought about the possibility of Chevy going beyond 133lbs after the announcement was made. However, we still question if any new weight loss techniques actually exist... The likelihood that the V's would have already adopted these methods are extremely high. It also appears as if the 140lbs of savings cost them next to nothing...


So, a sub-3700lbs SS can happen... but the likelihood of it actually happening are the same as seeing a 3700lbs Fully Loaded GTPP Premium or a 3700lbs Fully Loaded ATS-V Coupe/Sedan...

In my opinion, downsizing the brakes on the SS wasn't worth it. It was also a poor decision to leave the Convertible/1LE/z28 reinforcement out of the base structure only to rely solely on sub-frame connectors... I'm not sure how difficult it would be to reconfigure the structure at this point...

It all comes down to the BIW and 68 seems to think the magic rest in the Aluminum crush cans that can be removed. I haven't seen what he's talking about first hand but I have an idea what he's talking about. I have reason to believe some of the weight loss magic is happening at the sub-frame level AND, the decision to use the ATS's aluminum suspension or the CTS's steel construction. In other words, it's all 3 areas that have the SS's weight in check. We have seen an SS at MT missing the sub-frame reinforcement... maybe 30-40lbs of metal was missing.

Anyway, thePill doesn't need some sort of personal gain to continue... so, with that in mind, thePill can never lose. We did force Caddy's hand somewhat and that does make it difficult for Team Camaro when advertising a 3670lbs SS yet they can't prove to the public where they lost the 140lbs.

I love it. ThePill can never lose. Even if he's wrong he's right.

 

[DiMaio90]

So I can't help but think that you know you are wrong when it comes to the weight, so you are already setting up your fall back.......;)

You're car could weigh 3700lbs but it wouldn't matter because only an official document showing the breakdown of weight loss would suffice as proof. It's wonderful, everything GM publishes is a lie, but weighing your car isn't good enough. Only a GM document would really prove the weight. LOL.

 

[thePill]

So I can't help but think that you know you are wrong when it comes to the weight, so you are already setting up your fall back.......;)

I don't think there will be a fall back unfortunately... any and all hope was lost when Caddy downright confirmed a 3809lbs ATS-V. Since then, every week we get another piece of info that could possibly sink the ship. This week the Camaro was confirmed to be using a 19 gallon fuel tank. That's 20 to 25 valuable pounds that was just lost and may have put the SS into a weight deficit.

I can see the slight sigh of relief once thePill says a 3685lbs SS is possible... amidst my sense of humor :lol:

Don't let my humor give you false hope... now that the equipment weight is a wash in both 2SS (3760) and even the 1SS (3672), the duty rest solely on the Body in White... the requirement is simply removing 100-120lbs from the ATS-V's structure... In fact, looking at the 3760lbs 2SS, the losses may have been more. One thing is for sure... the 133lbs Chevy said they lost from the 5th Gen isn't going to cut it... they needed to lose close to 300lbs to do this. Maybe 250-270.

It will be interesting to see how they removed the weight from the Alpha...

 

[ZaneWayne]

I don't think there will be a fall back unfortunately... any and all hope was lost when Caddy downright confirmed a 3809lbs ATS-V. Since then, every week we get another piece of info that could possibly sink the ship. This week the Camaro was confirmed to be using a 19 gallon fuel tank. That's 20 to 25 valuable pounds that was just lost and may have put the SS into a weight deficit.

I can see the slight sigh of relief once thePill says a 3685lbs SS is possible... amidst my sense of humor :lol:

Don't let my humor give you false hope... now that the equipment weight is a wash in both 2SS (3760) and even the 1SS (3672), the duty rest solely on the Body in White... the requirement is simply removing 100-120lbs from the ATS-V's structure... In fact, looking at the 3760lbs 2SS, the losses may have been more. One thing is for sure... the 133lbs Chevy said they lost from the 5th Gen isn't going to cut it... they needed to lose close to 300lbs to do this. Maybe 250-270.

It will be interesting to see how they removed the weight from the Alpha...

False. The gas tank as always been 19 gallon. I was mistaken.

 

[Big Boss]

There is a strip out there, for real, that is slightly down hill, but I don't remember the name of it.

I swear Byron Dragway in IL goes down hill. They say it doesn't but it sure as hell looks like it goes down hill.

 

[thePill]

False. The gas tank as always been 19 gallon. I was mistaken.

I think the overall assumption was that the 6th Gen was purely ATS Alpha based until just very recently... some still believe the Camaro/ATS relationship to be stronger than the Camaro/CTS relationship.

Everyone assumed the Camaro would have been 109.3x60/61 and 184 inches long. I made it clear that the ATS's track was poor by using the WB:T ratio.

thePill also debunked any hopes of a 109.3 inch wheelbase too. I initially pointed out the need to increase the length of the engine bay because the ATS couldn't use the LT1. We said it had about 110.5 inch wheelbase and we were close. Chevy eventually said they changed the Dash to Axle ratio and the wheelbase was 110.7 inches.

It could have been 64.5 front and 62.9 in the rear at one time. I believe there was even a spy pic of a Widen Front Alpha... thePill eventually said at least a 63 inch wheelbase BUT, that was if they managed to use a 109.3 WB.

Still, at that point, people were still convinced it was ATS based.

We were privileged enough to get to see all 3 examples, side by side and we could visually tell the Camaro had Full Size CTS DNA.

Everyone seen the 19 gallon fuel tank in MT's test and said Motor Trend was mistaken. thePill said there was a very high chance it was a CTS fuel tank.

If the Camaro is using a Wide version of the Alpha Long and it's reinforced from the CTS's 715lbs BIW... the 1SS or 2SS cannot be lighter than the ATS-V Coupe at 3809lbs...

 

[ZaneWayne]

I think the overall assumption was that the 6th Gen was purely ATS Alpha based until just very recently... some still believe the Camaro/ATS relationship to be stronger than the Camaro/CTS relationship.

Everyone assumed the Camaro would have been 109.3x60/61 and 184 inches long. I made it clear that the ATS's track was poor by using the WB:T ratio.

thePill also debunked any hopes of a 109.3 inch wheelbase too. I initially pointed out the need to increase the length of the engine bay because the ATS couldn't use the LT1. We said it had about 110.5 inch wheelbase and we were close. Chevy eventually said they changed the Dash to Axle ratio and the wheelbase was 110.7 inches.

It could have been 64.5 front and 62.9 in the rear at one time. I believe there was even a spy pic of a Widen Front Alpha... thePill eventually said at least a 63 inch wheelbase BUT, that was if they managed to use a 109.3 WB.

Still, at that point, people were still convinced it was ATS based.

We were privileged enough to get to see all 3 examples, side by side and we could visually tell the Camaro had Full Size CTS DNA.

Everyone seen the 19 gallon fuel tank in MT's test and said Motor Trend was mistaken. thePill said there was a very high chance it was a CTS fuel tank.

If the Camaro is using a Wide version of the Alpha Long and it's reinforced from the CTS's 715lbs BIW... the 1SS or 2SS cannot be lighter than the ATS-V Coupe at 3809lbs...

But since it is not based on either of them, its not going to have a problem being 3,660 or whatever the base is.

 

[1320']

The Camaro is not based on the ATS, it's on Alpha.

The CTS is on Alpha

The ATS is on Alpha.

The Camaro has elements of both the CTS and ATS variants of Alpha.

You cannot compare the Camaro to the ATS or CTS, period, dot, end of sentence, case closed.

Pill..you see yourself on some grand crusade to bring truth, fidelity and justice to some imagined car universe..but you look less the brave Knight and more a Don Quixote attacking windmills.

The arguments of BIW this, ringer that and everything else is just academic at this point, the design is locked in and in no more than 2 weeks there will be absolute numbers.

If a 1SS with the A8 comes in at 3,800 lbs then GM were and are liars. If it comes in at 3,700lbs then they were telling the truth and you were wrong. At that point I would suggest you accept that you were wrong and not start screaming about conspiracy, deception or any other theories to try and defend or salvage your credibility.

 

[ZaneWayne]

The Camaro is not based on the ATS, it's on Alpha.

The CTS is on Alpha

The ATS is on Alpha.

The Camaro has elements of both the CTS and ATS variants of Alpha.

You cannot compare the Camaro to the ATS or CTS, period, dot, end of sentence, case closed.

Pill..you see yourself on some grand crusade to bring truth, fidelity and justice to some imagined car universe..but you look less the brave Knight and more a Don Quixote attacking windmills.

The arguments of BIW this, ringer that and everything else is just academic at this point, the design is locked in and in no more than 2 weeks there will be absolute numbers.

If a 1SS with the A8 comes in at 3,800 lbs then GM were and are liars. If it comes in at 3,700lbs then they were telling the truth and you were wrong. At that point I would suggest you accept that you were wrong and not start screaming about conspiracy, deception or any other theories to try and defend or salvage your credibility.

:clap2::clap2::amen::cheers:

 

[thePill]

But since it is not based on either of them, its not going to have a problem being 3,660 or whatever the base is.

Sure, I guess you could... but you need to disregard the overall mass difference between the two. The Camaro's unique 70% from the CTS is even larger than the CTS is some areas. In fact, the Camaro is an 1 or 2 wider than the CTS overall. It also had a wider track too... The 6th Gen Camaro is just larger overall... I mean... It's just pure mass larger in every direction... and the use of Aluminum wasn't as much as the ATS-V either...

Of course it would be easy to prove... they just need to release the Camaro platforms nomenclature and show how they went beyond the ATS-V.

 

[thePill]

The Camaro is not based on the ATS, it's on Alpha.

The CTS is on Alpha

The ATS is on Alpha.

The Camaro has elements of both the CTS and ATS variants of Alpha.

You cannot compare the Camaro to the ATS or CTS, period, dot, end of sentence, case closed.

Pill..you see yourself on some grand crusade to bring truth, fidelity and justice to some imagined car universe..but you look less the brave Knight and more a Don Quixote attacking windmills.

The arguments of BIW this, ringer that and everything else is just academic at this point, the design is locked in and in no more than 2 weeks there will be absolute numbers.

If a 1SS with the A8 comes in at 3,800 lbs then GM were and are liars. If it comes in at 3,700lbs then they were telling the truth and you were wrong. At that point I would suggest you accept that you were wrong and not start screaming about conspiracy, deception or any other theories to try and defend or salvage your credibility.

Windmills were actually an important part of the overall war effort. I would burn them down if I couldn't utilize them myself :lol:


I may need to consider that Chevy will not do what Caddy did. I'm still not sure at what point the ATS-V went from 3700 to 3800 man... Could it have been after the first cars shipped? The update didn't happen until September... I think they started receiving cars in June.

Do you not find it strange? Don't you want to find out more?

I surely do... as far as automotive neat stuff goes, this is the nearest thing thePill has ever seen. It's unfortunate that I still receive resistance... but the more time we spend on it, the more things we see ;)

 

[DiMaio90]

Sure, I guess you could... but you need to disregard the overall mass difference between the two. The Camaro's unique 70% from the CTS is even larger than the CTS is some areas. In fact, the Camaro is an 1 or 2 wider than the CTS overall. It also had a wider track too... The 6th Gen Camaro is just larger overall... I mean... It's just pure mass larger in every direction... and the use of Aluminum wasn't as much as the ATS-V either...

Of course it would be easy to prove... they just need to release the Camaro platforms nomenclature and show how they went beyond the ATS-V.

It's easier than that to prove. Weigh ZaneWayne's car when it comes out. Meet up with him and make sure the tank is full. If it's heavy you win. If it's light you win.

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