No driving a manual does not make you smarter, more skilled, a better driver or more of a car guy.

[OnThree]

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[Qcman17]

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[Rapid Red]

Again. Intrepid hero (me). First car (manual Camry). Quest (defeat The Manual Man). Conflict (coming to terms with my manual driving past). Resolution (discovering the 10R80).

Now I see the problem, you never had a real car starting out. You cannot be blamed for not understanding.

 

[Rapid Red]

And what was your first car hot shot?

56 chevy .......... short shot?

 

[OnThree]

Now I see the problem, you never had a real car starting out. You cannot be blamed for not understanding.

Great minds think alike

 

[Sivi70980]

I can smoothly shift a farm tractor going up hill pulling a hay wagon. I can smoothly shift a road tractor, pulling an 80,000 Lb load or bob tail. I can smoothly shift any 60's 70''s or 80's 4 or 5 speed but I cannot smoothly shift one of these nanny assisted fuel injected rev hang POS's to save my life.

So auto for me. I really want a DCT.

There's this thing called patience. Took a week or so but I now drive the MT-82 just like any other manual. Go backwards to older cars and still drive them just like before. I did drive my buddy's Peterbuilt 379 once. That was fun!

Again, nothing wrong with the A10 either, still plenty of fun!

 

[EmCel]

it just looks funny and silly

 

[Sivi70980]

So we had around the same horsepower

I liked it better when you were banned

A manual V8 vs a manual 4 cylinder just might be the same differences as an auto 8 vs auto 4 lol.

 

[Briebee72]

A/T people:
-Our transmissions are superior
-Can complete a shift in x milliseconds
-Our cars are faster
-M/T is trash

Also A/T people:
-M/T shift boot install to “look cool”
-A/T shifts too much/too little
-A/T shifts too harsh/too soft
-A/T often in different gear than desired

M/T people:
-Skill required to operate
-Always in desired gear
-Always at desired shift firmness
-Simpler transmission design
-Lighter in weight
-A/T is boring

Also M/T people:
-Traffic sucks
-Shift speed limited by synchonizer design (skilled drivers only)
-Clutch release problems
-I don’t want to come to a stop on that hill
-I don’t trust those valet people

All in good fun, no offense intended

IN all fairness drivers of both can understand the I dont trust those valet people.

 

[EmCel]

IN all fairness drivers of both can understand the I dont trust those valet people.

I knew some ppl who worked for valet parking at a night club in DC. They would always talk about that vette, R8, Shelby, AMG, etc and how fast they would go.

It's like some mechanics that " test drive" your car. They don't really give a shit.

ya definitely don't trust valet

 

[Burkey]

To quote the original statement of:
No driving a manual does not make you smarter, more skilled, a better driver or more of a car guy.

I totally agree. However, driving a manual does allow for the POTENTIAL for a higher skill-threshold if the driver wishes to pursue it.

For example:
It‘s one thing to be able to heel-toe downshift, it’s another to be able to do it in a butter-smooth fashion, to the point that a passenger can’t feel any difference in braking pressure on the downshifts. The auto driver can’t explore this area of driving finesse.

Side-stepping the clutch on mid-corner downshifts to cause a compression lock-up is something else the auto guy can’t explore. Mid-corner handfuls of opposite-lock anyone?

Clutch-kicking for epic powerskids? Haven’t seen an auto guy do it yet.

Meanwhile, in the bike world, guys are opposed to ABS because it interferes with their ability to control the bike properly, which would be the exact same reason I‘ve had the TC/ESC plug pulled for the past few years.

Electronics are great, but they can’t predict what a human is actually trying to achieve,

I‘d argue that if you aren’t using heel-toe, not using compression lock-ups, not clutch-kicking and driving around with your TC or ESC on, you’re really not exploring the opportunities that your transmission allows.
Buy an auto. Save yourself the hassle .

 

[Briebee72]

To quote the original statement of:
No driving a manual does not make you smarter, more skilled, a better driver or more of a car guy.

I totally agree. However, driving a manual does allow for the POTENTIAL for a higher skill-threshold if the driver wishes to pursue it.

For example:
It‘s one thing to be able to heel-toe downshift, it’s another to be able to do it in a butter-smooth fashion, to the point that a passenger can’t feel any difference in braking pressure on the downshifts. The auto driver can’t explore this area of driving finesse.

Side-stepping the clutch on mid-corner downshifts to cause a compression lock-up is something else the auto guy can’t explore. Mid-corner handfuls of opposite-lock anyone?

Clutch-kicking for epic powerskids? Haven’t seen an auto guy do it yet.

Meanwhile, in the bike world, guys are opposed to ABS because it interferes with their ability to control the bike properly, which would be the exact same reason I‘ve had the TC/ESC plug pulled for the past few years.

Electronics are great, but they can’t predict what a human is actually trying to achieve,

I‘d argue that if you aren’t using heel-toe, not using compression lock-ups, not clutch-kicking and driving around with your TC or ESC on, you’re really not exploring the opportunities that your transmission allows.
Buy an auto. Save yourself the hassle .

Well. Good points but. the motorcycle thing is a different story and I can agree with the abs cause issues as i have a goofed up right thumb because of them. but for the car, You are discussing 3 things that are not necessary to know to be able to do to drive a manual well. Or to be a better driver in over all daily driving ability.

Back in the day sure being able to heal toe sure made shifts smoother but did it make you a better driver? not really. Maybe in the world of manuals it made you better then another manual driver in that paticular skill set but better driver as a whole naaa . But today heal toeing is unnessiasry and is akin to needing something printed and the printer insisting on using type set instead of just using a computer to make the document up or someone buying a new laptop and putting windows 98 on it. heal toeing is one of those things that some manual guy somewhere saw a race car driver do and brought it over to commuter driving and now insists its necessary. most every modern manual doesn't need heal toeing.

As for the other two points... that just you screwing around nether of those are necessary to drive a car at all in everyday life and are just show boating and having nothing to do with being a batter driver and are about equal too.....

 

[Burkey]

Grip > Drift

Well. Good points but. the motorcycle thing is a different story and I can agree with the abs cause issues as i have a goofed up right thumb because of them. but for the car, You are discussing 3 things that are not necessary to know to be able to do to drive a manual well. Or to be a better driver in over all daily driving ability.

Back in the day sure being able to heal toe sure made shifts smoother but did it make you a better driver? not really. Maybe in the world of manuals it made you better then another manual driver in that paticular skill set but better driver as a whole naaa . But today heal toeing is unnessiasry and is akin to needing something printed and the printer insisting on using type set instead of just using a computer to make the document up or someone buying a new laptop and putting windows 98 on it. heal toeing is one of those things that some manual guy somewhere saw a race car driver do and brought it over to commuter driving and now insists its necessary. most every modern manual doesn't need heal toeing.

As for the other two points... that just you screwing around nether of those are necessary to drive a car at all in everyday life and are just show boating and having nothing to do with being a batter driver and are about equal too.....

Are we discussing necessity or “good driving“? How do we even define a “good“ driver?
Is it someone who can navigate traffic safely or someone who can rip a power skid at 60mph with absolute control, deliberately making the car fishtail just for entertainment value?

Your original post claimed that driving a manual doesn’t (necessarily) make you a better driver, and I agree with that in as far as “necessity“ is concerned.

My point is that if you drive a manual like you’d drive an auto, buy an auto.
If you drive a manual the way it CAN be driven, an auto is UTTERLY unsuitable.

Do we drive performance cars out of necessity? I think not.

Some people like to do motorkhanas, drift days, track days and a whole heap of things that are thoroughly less enjoyable/less challenging with a pedal missing.

We (3 pedal guys) do these things for FUN, not out of necessity. The fact that those things make us better drivers is a bonus.
The value of these events is mostly lost on the average punter, which might be why they bought an auto in the first place....

For some people, it’s not just a transmission, it’s a mindset The transmission is simply the tool that helps them to explore that mindset.

In an alternate universe, there’s someone wishing Ford would offer a fourth pedal. Of course the 2 pedal guys think he‘s just being silly while the 3 pedal guys will tell him that the fourth pedal only achieves the same function as the handbrake.....except.....he might know a thing or two that they don’t.....

 

[Norm Peterson]

To quote the original statement of:
No driving a manual does not make you smarter, more skilled, a better driver or more of a car guy.

I totally agree. However, driving a manual does allow for the POTENTIAL for a higher skill-threshold if the driver wishes to pursue it.

A good MT driver will have more driving skills in his toolkit. But being good at a few things that the average AT driver may not even be aware of isn't the same as being more skilled, overall.

For example:
It‘s one thing to be able to heel-toe downshift, it’s another to be able to do it in a butter-smooth fashion, to the point that a passenger can’t feel any difference in braking pressure on the downshifts. The auto driver can’t explore this area of driving finesse.

Obviously you can't H-T downshift an automatic. You don't have to H-T downshift a MT to get a butter-smooth downshift, either. A good double-clutch rev-matched downshift can be equally smooth, though at some cost in terms of lap time on the track (which counts for nothing at all on the street).

But guess what - it's also possible to rev-match a manually commanded downshift with an automatic (at least with some ATs). And I'm going to bet that being able to do that wouldn't occur to more than maybe one AT driver out of 100,000. It's too much of a MT skill, and even there I'd bet against most MT drivers - including you - thinking to try it.

Side-stepping the clutch on mid-corner downshifts to cause a compression lock-up is something else the auto guy can’t explore. Mid-corner handfuls of opposite-lock anyone?

Clutch-kicking for epic powerskids? Haven’t seen an auto guy do it yet.

I have to fully agree with Brie on these matters. Intentionally breaking traction - especially in a corner - has no place in either your street driving or out on a road course. Though I know for a fact that a 352-powered 1965 Ford pickup truck would easily clutch-kick 2nd gear rubber from a roll.

Electronics are great, but they can’t predict what a human is actually trying to achieve

And here I'm going to agree with you. They can react to what you start to do, sometimes with more success, sometimes with not so much, but they aren't ever going to be in phase with your initial intentions.

I‘d argue that if you aren’t using heel-toe, not using compression lock-ups, not clutch-kicking and driving around with your TC or ESC on, you’re really not exploring the opportunities that your transmission allows.
Buy an auto. Save yourself the hassle.

Let's not drag the nannies into this discussion. As far as I know, they don't affect automatic transmission operation. Not yet, anyway.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Are we discussing necessity or “good driving“? How do we even define a “good“ driver?
Is it someone who can navigate traffic safely or someone who can rip a power skid at 60mph with absolute control, deliberately making the car fishtail just for entertainment value?

A good driver makes smooth transitions with his car control inputs. On the street, that corresponds to having a maximum margin of safety relative to speeds and conditions. On the track it means maximum average speed / minimum lap time relative to being at or close to the car's ultimate limits.

My point is that if you drive a manual like you’d drive an auto, buy an auto.

On the street, there's no need to drive a manual much different than you would an automatic. On the street, it's not about the extremes of what you could do with a clutch and MT, it's mainly about keeping the engine revving at rpms where adequate throttle response exists for the conditions of the moment. Automatics are more or less programmed with that (and other criteria) in mind. You could do a whole lot worse than take the same approach to your own manual shifting.

If you drive a manual the way it CAN be driven, an auto is UTTERLY unsuitable.

That covers only one of four combinations [of transmission type and suitability]. There's plenty of reasons an automatic could be "UTTERLY unsuitable" even if you don't drive a MT car in any of the show-off manners that you have mentioned.

Trust me on this.

For some people, it’s not just a transmission, it’s a mindset The transmission is simply the tool that helps them to explore that mindset.

The only mindset necessary here is,
"I can do this all by myself, with no help at all" - me, circa 1950.


Norm

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