Hoping for AWD in the future

[Grimace427]

As to weight I never understood what the Mustang and Camaro were so heavy compared to an STI and Evo with four doors.

The STI and EVO are both heavy cars too, over 3,500lbs with a 4-cylinder. They weigh about what the ecoboost Mustang weighs.

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[leftywayn]

If they did offer a rear biased AWD system in a Mustang I'd probably get it. If Ford could offer Evo levels of AWD ability with the 5.0 I'd definitely buy it.

I doubt they ever would but then BMW's M division said they'd never offer it either...

As to weight I never understood what the Mustang and Camaro were so heavy compared to an STI and Evo with four doors.

Are you referring to the X6M?

Mustang, Camaro equating to STI, Evo.... good, or bad, like or not... not the same type. They come from very different places.

 

[EXP Jawa]

The STI and EVO are both heavy cars too, over 3,500lbs with a 4-cylinder. They weigh about what the ecoboost Mustang weighs.

Subaru claims 3386 for the STI, though as we've seen recently, its hard to say what that really means. Mitsubishi does claim 3527 for the Evo, however.

 

[Fenderaddict2]

I'm all for a future AWD option as long as the focus is performance as with the 3-series and 911.

 

[OppoLock]

Hey there, long time lurker, first time poster…

Been looking at this thread and I see a lot of people talking about heritage, weight, complexity, cost, platform sharing potential, and performance. I agree that all of these things have at least some bearing on the discussion at hand (should ford offer an AWD mustang as an option). I believe it should offer a rear wheel biased AWD system as an additional offering. (think BMW x-drive instead of the Taurus AWD system). However, they should still offer the RWD system and NEVER FWD only.

Heritage – yes, the Mustang has traditionally been a RWD car and it has typically had at least the option of a big engine stuffed in the front to make it go fast down the straights. That said, Ford has been refining that concept much more in the recent years, and in my opinion, needs to continue to do so. Performance cars, especially a car that has hopes of aspiring to be a sports car, need to be able to do more than one thing these days. It needs to have good acceleration, but now it also needs to be able to go around a corner. Ford has already recognized this with the development of the Boss 302 and now with the new Mustang. Just because the Mustang did only one thing well previously does not mean it needs to limit itself today. Finally, the Mustang is no longer just a North America only car. This car is being shipped out to the world and for much of the rest of the world; handling is as important, and probably more important, than pure straight line acceleration

Weight – yes, the AWD system adds weight. There is no getting around that. It will also impact mileage by 2-3 MPGs. This is probably the biggest factor against it.

Complexity – This will also add complexity to the vehicle. This could possibly impact maintenance costs.

Cost – It will increase the purchase cost of the vehicle. You can’t just slap some extra parts in there and say “here, have this for free” That said, the RWD version should still run about the same, minus a few engineering costs.

Platform sharing potential – In my opinion, Ford does not have a good AWD system. I drove the SHO when I was looking for my last car and I still felt torque steer when I put the pedal down. While it is much better than a FWD car, it’s also too FWD biased. This is the wrong type of system for a performance car like a mustang. I would much rather see a good AWD system like BMW has where there is a strong RWD bias, so when AWD is not needed, most of the power is going to the rear wheels. This would allow Ford to develop other RWD cars. One set of possibilities is a stretch version of the Mustang for both Ford and Lincoln. Call it a successor to the Thunderbird and Mark series. They could even develop a nice 4 door luxary/performance sedan. To be honest, I would much rather have the Auzzie Falcon than the Taurus. Give it AWD as an option and it would probably sell like hotcakes here in the US. They could even cram a big motor in it and bring back a Ford muscle car (as opposed to the Mustang being a pony car). Right now, the only options for a large RWD sedan are the Charger, the SS, or go to a luxury nameplate (BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, etc). However, before any of these cars can be built, they need a good AWD system because the average American has been brainwashed to believe that AWD is better in snow.

Performance – this is the big one to me. Now, for BMW at least, once you get to around 300 or so horsepower, their cars are actually faster with their x-drive systems for 0-60 and ¼ mile times. Why? They can put power down to the ground so much more effectively. When you are spinning your wheels, you are wasting power that could be used to propel you down the track. If you are chirping your tires on your 1-2 shift, you are wasting power. If you have nannies, it also means that in an AWD system on the roadways, they kick in less because you are not loosing traction when you hammer it. Now, under 250 and it’s probably better to have a RWD car.

I know what some of you are saying, you can put massive tires on the back and improve traction, but for the average person, is that really effective? Let’s face it, people here (including me) love the Mustang because of the performance aspect of it, but most buyers don’t really care that much. It doesn’t matter if you are male or female, if you’re not a gear head, you probably just don’t care, but AWD would probably boost sales. More sales means more money Ford can justify putting into the platform the next time around. I think everyone cares about that.
I am using BMW as an example because they offer both RWD and AWD for the same car/engine and they are fairly well balanced. I realize it is just one manufacturer, but with the exception of the 528, every car shows an improvement with x-drive in both 0-60 and ¼ mile times.

Car................0-60 time.......¼ mile time
BMW 528i...........6.1............14.5
BMW 528x..........6.3............14.8
BMW 535i...........5.5............14.1
BMW 535xi.........5.4............13.9
BMW 550i...........4.8............13.5
BMW 550xi..........4.5............13.3
BMW 328i (auto)..5.7............14.4
BMW 328xi..........5.6............14.4
BMW 335i...........4.9............13.7
BMW 335xi..........4.7............13.5
In summary, while AWD has both pros and cons, my belief on offering AWD as an option is that the pros of performance and platform sharing outweigh the weight, complexity and cost issues involved.

The big issue when it comes to making an argument in favor of AWD for performance reasons is that they're mostly centered around launching figures or low speed acceleration instances. Outside of those scenarios, the added weight and drivetrain loss is a burden. You end up with more overall weight and a shift towards the nose. AWD will not help with braking or any kind of lateral movement either, so its advantages really are limited.

A RWD setup doesn't have to be nervous or poor at applying torque during spirited driving, even at high levels of output. A properly tuned LSD in combination with well integrated traction nets... or proper knowledge of how to use the go pedal... will help immensely.

 

[Tony Alonso]

I think that this may be similar to what Mustang enthusiasts are saying or have said about the idea of the Mustang going IRS and the addition of a four cylinder.

Technically, the 4 cylinder engine is a repeat And going IRS was (mostly) a 50-year change

The car will evolve so its possible, however I see it highly more likely in other Ford models at least initially. I would like to see it in the Focus (& Fiesta) especially if there is an RS coming although I have heard FoMoCo engineers say that the FWD system is sufficient.

While it certainly could, the enthusiast contingent inside and outside Ford Motor Company would have to have a WAY open mind about this because of the driving dynamic change with AWD. When I referenced heritage, this is part of what I had in mind, not just the drive system.

For me individually, this is quite a core thing, moreso even compared to the IRS. I know certainly anything is possible, but man, when Ford starts producing electric motor AWD vehicles called "Mustang", I am gonna cry

 

[genericuser1]

Simple - the Mustang and Camaro are larger cars than the STI & Evo. Mustang is 7.5" longer, 5" wider, and on a 3" longer wheelbase than the STI, roughly speaking. Those differences are not insignificant. Camaro is 3" longer still, with 5" more wheelbase. Its not hard to imagine, then, that these cars are also a few hundred pounds heavier too. Back in the SN95 generation, when the Mustang's exterior dimensions were similar to the STI & Evo, the weights were in the same ballpark as the WRX. My '99 GT convertible is among the heaviest of the generation at a little over 3400 pounds. But they're essentially a size class larger now.

Then my question is why? Why is it so big? I had plenty of room in my STI for two adults and a load of stuff in the hatch. Yet it's smaller and lighter (with AWD) and better rear seat space than a Mustang.

Obviously the Mustang is much better looking as a two door should be.

Yes this is apples and oranges but then I'm the sort or person that says I have $XX,XXX to spend and want Y and Z what new or used meets that criteria and I look at everything.

 

[DivineStrike]

AWD will not come to the mustang ever. In 50 years you haven't seen it. No reason to think it will happen now. The mustang has far too low of production numbers for ford to even consider the extremely small market that there would be for AWD, it just would not benefit them in any considerable way. It is a far better use of time to just further develop the chassis and make it a more exciting vehicle to drive. The ford focus will get awd long before there is even a thought in putting it in the mustang. There is actually a strong market for putting awd in the focus, but for now Ford will be sticking to the Fusion and it's trucks.

 

[EXP Jawa]

Then my question is why? Why is it so big? I had plenty of room in my STI for two adults and a load of stuff in the hatch. Yet it's smaller and lighter (with AWD) and better rear seat space than a Mustang.

Obviously the Mustang is much better looking as a two door should be.

Yes this is apples and oranges but then I'm the sort or person that says I have $XX,XXX to spend and want Y and Z what new or used meets that criteria and I look at everything.

Because somewhere along the way, someone figured out that a bigger car would sell better. I know that sounds obvious, but the reality is that just about every car in every size class grows with each generation.

Generally, it comes in part from OEMs trying to better their competition by adding a little more interior space, trunk space, whatever, to get a marketing advantage. Overtime, though, this eventually leads to significant ballooning. Of course, this is more important to mainstream sedans, but cars like the Mustang follow the same trend. A good example to look at (aside from Mustang) is Ford's C-segment car. In 1981, they gave us the Escort, which was subsequently superceded by the Focus. Compare the dimensions of the early Escort with a current Focus, and you'll see huge growth. In fact, the B-segment Fiesta has essentially grown to the size of the Escort.

In part, as well, it comes from available platforms. When S197 started out, it was intended to be based on the DEW98 platform, since that was the new, modern RWD midsize platform that was available. When all was said and done, the final product had changed enough to become a different entity, but the basic size of that platform set the footprint for the new model. 50 years ago, the Mustang was spun from the Falcon, and its dimensions set the size. From the late '70s to early '90s, the Fox platform built for the Fairmont drove the Mustang's size. Now S550 is actually on its own, non-shared, platform. But it still has legacy dimensions from the S197, since someone worked out that they didn't want the car to shrink. It seems like half the folks here lament that the car didn't go back to the SN95 size, the others claim that they like the size it is and wouldn't buy a smaller one. I'm still driving an SN95, so I'm used to a subcompact Mustang. But for the majority of the buying public, that's probably too small.

Compared to the Subaru, even if the interior volume is similar, the Mustang's basic shape and proportions (long nose, etc) sort of dictate a larger overall car for that interior size. I think you'd find that an older Mustang that was similar in exterior size to the WRX (SN95) is smaller inside. Obviously, a coupe versus a 5-door hatch is a huge difference in interior utility as well.

 

[Sal JC]

I think that this may be similar to what Mustang enthusiasts are saying or have said about the idea of the Mustang going IRS and the addition of a four cylinder.

Technically, the 4 cylinder engine is a repeat And going IRS was (mostly) a 50-year change

Guess technically the IRS in a repeat too in '03-'04 & not only was the the base Mustang 4 cyl up to '93 but in '83 the 2.3L was even offered in the GT :eyebulge:

 

[leftywayn]

Guess technically the IRS in a repeat too in '03-'04 & not only was the the base Mustang 4 cyl up to '93 but in '83 the 2.3L was even offered in the GT :eyebulge:

Don't forget IRS in '99 Cobra, '00 Cobra R, and 01 Cobra. All naturally aspirated.

 

[Norm Peterson]

BINGO.

I work in marketing, and the first thing you have to adjust your thinking to is the concept that you are not the typical customer. I catch myself in this trap all the time. But the fact is that while you or I may care about the Mustang's technological heritage, the average consumer most definitely DOES NOT.

The average car buyer has no idea about the nuances between the Mustang's heritage layouts/technologies, let alone cares about them. Here's a great example: women make up over 40% of Mustang buyers; ask your wife or girlfriend about FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD or a turbo 4 vs a V8 and see how deep that conversation goes. Odds are, not very (and if your wife or gf is a car buff, congratulations: a perfect example of the exception that proves the rule).

The majority of consumers make their car-buying decisions based on price, how the car looks and feels compared to the competition, and a higher MPG rating that still feels strong on the go pedal gets extra points. This is a big reason why they're making an EcoBoost at all -- in addition to meeting CAFE standards -- and why it will be the biggest seller in the S550 line.

The bottom line is, if AWD ever has a cost-to-demand advantage in the market on the Mustang, it WILL happen. You can take that to the bank.

If you push the appeal of the Mustang away from its enthusiast following toward what the average consumer bases his/her buying decisions on, you are essentially throwing away what makes a Mustang a Mustang. It's supposed to be mildly rebellious rather than utilitarian, attainable rather than exotic, and fun to drive in its own right rather than a technical tour-de-force to be seen in.

If the core Mustang buyer is alienated - a clear possibility should things like AWD or electric motor assist be incorporated - you might as well retire the Mustang name and go with something more appropriate . . . like, say, "Probe II".


Norm

 

[Tony Alonso]

If you push the appeal of the Mustang away from its enthusiast following toward what the average consumer bases his/her buying decisions on, you are essentially throwing away what makes a Mustang a Mustang. It's supposed to be mildly rebellious rather than utilitarian, attainable rather than exotic, and fun to drive in its own right rather than a technical tour-de-force to be seen in.

If the core Mustang buyer is alienated - a clear possibility should things like AWD or electric motor assist be incorporated - you might as well retire the Mustang name and go with something more appropriate . . . like, say, "Probe II".


Norm

With this, I agree.

 

[leftywayn]

If the core Mustang buyer is alienated - a clear possibility should things like AWD or electric motor assist be incorporated - you might as well retire the Mustang name and go with something more appropriate . . . like, say, "Probe II".


Norm[/QUOTE]

This is an informed, insightful assesment of why the Mustang will never be AWD.

The Probe came to mind for me as well.

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