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Mach VII

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How long would an EV last in that type of traffic, when the traffic is stalled for hours on end due to major accident or weather calamity? And where/how would the same EVs start charging…
They would survive longer than ICE vehicle, you are not draining the battery when stopped and if you need AC/heat they use a heat pump - way more efficient than running an ICE vehicle.
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Mach VII

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California plan…..mandate EV…power grid won’t handle …go to federal government when it’s emergency that nobody can charge cars…federal government has to roll in and bail them out to fix power grid. Be interesting since they are so opposed to nuclear power
Is it a wise idea to build nuclear power plants in an area that is covered with fault zones? Power grid is owned by a private company, should the state take over?
 

Mach VII

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Also coal and natural gas. California has caused 99% of the problems they have themselves. I don't want my tax dollars bailing them out.

They should build water reservoirs. They should allow power companies to build natural gas power plants......
That's bullshit. California has tried to and succeeded in drastically cutting pollution yet they are at the mercy (as we all are) of the world around them. Don't want to help? I suppose we should let the Southeast US fend for themselves when hurricanes hit.... they knew what they were getting into. How about the northern tier of states when ice storms/blizzards occur? Fuck them too? You are showing your ignorance with the reservoir statement, the existing ones in the west are running dry, no rain to fill them. Why would they build more?
 
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Is it a wise idea to build nuclear power plants in an area that is covered with fault zones? Power grid is owned by a private company, should the state take over?
California has around 14 million registered cars. That doesn’t count road tractors, farm equipment or motorcycles. It also does not count visiting gasoline or diesel consuming vehicles. Your saying California can electronically power all these vehicles and supply power to homes with wind and solar? Can’t use nuclear, coal or natural gas because they are polluters and unsafe. The metals to make solar panels and batteries are raping this earth more than fossil fuels not to mention the wars to be fought trying capture these metals. Why do you think China is in the crack and crevice of every place on earth? They are hoarding precious metals. To me the answer is diesel fuel made from bio materials for automobiles and nuclear fusion NOT FISSON for power. As long as there is a jet engine there will be fossil fuel Russia, China and India will never ever comply with Paris Accord because it’s a matter of national security and they pollute more than US could ever
 

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sk47

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They would survive longer than ICE vehicle, you are not draining the battery when stopped and if you need AC/heat they use a heat pump - way more efficient than running an ICE vehicle.
Hello; Let me first dismiss the premise of your post on two counts. First and most basic. is that a true battery only EV does not produce any power of its own. The battery must be charged from a power source just like a cell phone or my trolling motor battery currently being charged. That by an outlet from a power company. Once charged the battery pack can only be depleted by any and all use.
Next is the notion that a typical AC system in an ICE vehicle is fundamentally different than a heat pump. They are essentially the same except for one function. My take is "heat pump" (HP) has become a catch phrase likely from all the ads and shows such as home repair type.

Both work the same way. A motor turns a compressor which circulates a fluid which can be compressed to a liquid at less than extreme temperatures and pressures. Both have a compressor coil and an evaporator coil with similar plumbing connecting the two.
A difference being the functions can be reversed in a heat pump just like the one attached to my house. When I want to cool the inside of my home the system operates to pull heat from inside and transfers it to the outside unit. When i need heat inside the unit pulls heat out of the outside air and transfers the heat to the inside of my home. Same way any other "heat pump"(HP) does no matter if it is in a house or a car.

My take is there is no big difference between a typical AC unit in an ICE and a HP. A difference comes during cold weather when heat is needed. In an ICE there is plenty of heat available from the operation of the engine. That heat is simply plumbed into the interior and adds no extra demand from the engine. Heat from an ICE in winter does not affect fuel economy.

However, an EV does not have such a reliable heat source. An EV does have a colling system because the batteries get hot during heavy use. Yes, a small radiator with antifreeze to keep things cool. I make a guess here since the term "heat pump" has been used. Apparently, that heat is not enough to keep a car interior warm. So, a heat pump must reverse function to pull heat from the outside air and transfer it to inside the car.
If I am correct in my guess the heat pump will need to have a motor to operate the compressor to move heat into the car. That will take as much energy as running in AC mode. So, the ICE wins during the winter in terms of energy consumption and the ICE and EV are a tie during hot weather.

One more bit on heat pumps. As temperatures get to extremes the heat pump has to work harder to move energy from one place to the other. For example, my older house heat pump gets less efficient as temperatures approach freezing temps. In fact, my heat pump system has a set of resistance coils (think electric stove top burners). At very cold temps my older pump cannot pull enough heat out of the cold air and uses those less efficient coils. Newer HP's are better and someday I will have one.

An additional guess is the same happens in a car HP. Temperature extremes will cause the HP to have to work harder and thus draw more power. My take is the ICE wins big time during hot weather. The engine RPM's do go up some when sitting still to run the AC. During winter the ICE can keep you warm at regular idle.

Summary: If I am stuck in traffic for a long time the ICE will be the better deal. As long as there is fuel I can have essential heat or nice but not essential cooling. After a long time, I can still drive away if I have fuel left or get a can of gas from AAA.

You are correct on one point the EV uses no power at all if everything is turned off. Wait for it!!!. Same for an ICE. I have been stuck in traffic and have rolled down the windows and simply turned off the ICE.
 

sk47

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Is it a wise idea to build nuclear power plants in an area that is covered with fault zones? Power grid is owned by a private company, should the state take over?
Hello; You are correct in that a nuclear reactor should not be placed on a known fault, especially an active one. Some faults are very risky. Others not so much.
If California had trouble with reactors because of faults then shutting them down is a responsible action. Is that the case? Did they move to shutting down a carbon clean energy production source because of fault dangers. If so, such will be news to me.
I have been under the impression the reasons hovered around a different agenda. I tend to agree a nuclear plant has definite and substantial risks associated. Release of radioactive materials being the greater of them. In a perfect world I also would stamp my feet and say no nukes.

However, I am not crying out for no coal, oil or no natural gas power plants. I concede some emissions from those power plants. So, I hope to keep the coal/natural gas plants in my area going.
But the choice seems to be little or no power when i need it from solar, wind, hydro, tide, geothermal or other "green" approved power sources. Throw all the "dream scenarios" around you wish, but last week California did indeed tell folks to not use their electric cars and appliances. Not exactly a good underpinning for the dream. Wonder how many green dreamers sat in their swelteringly warm homes with a discharged EV last week?
 

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California has tried to and succeeded in drastically cutting pollution yet they are at the mercy (as we all are) of the world around them.
When I was a kid Lake Erie was so polluted it actually caught fire. L.ast I heard it is now safe to eat fish from the lake.

Ohio does not have the rolling blackouts like Cali. Ohio got rid of a shit ton of pollution, just like Cali. The Ohio Valley is now 99% smog free. I can see to the horizon when on a ridge, I could not when I was young.

So yes, we can have clean air and water and also have plenty of energy.

My car Tag says "Coal keeps the lights on" With the modern scrubbers you could hang 10 feet above a coal smoke stack for days and not get sick or die.
 

sk47

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When I was a kid Lake Erie was so polluted it actually caught fire. L.ast I heard it is now safe to eat fish from the lake.

Ohio does not have the rolling blackouts like Cali. Ohio got rid of a shit ton of pollution, just like Cali. The Ohio Valley is now 99% smog free. I can see to the horizon when on a ridge, I could not when I was young.

So yes, we can have clean air and water and also have plenty of energy.

My car Tag says "Coal keeps the lights on" With the modern scrubbers you could hang 10 feet above a coal smoke stack for days and not get sick or die.
Hello; I had similar experience in my younger days. My father lived in Indianapolis and i passed thru Cincinati coming and going. I avoided a route thru Cincinati near some industrial areas as the air would sting my eyes. As time went on things have been greatly cleaned up.
I guess a lot of the younger no fossil fuels champions have no experience of really bad pollutions so perhaps their perspective is not based on a reality. They have no true point of reference about how much better things are.
A single thing which astounded me was when the "green" folks started attacking natural gas. It took a long time to move power plants away from almost all coal to the very much cleaner natural gas. The plan often was for coal plants with scrubbers to run at a baseline since they are harder to fire up from cold. Then run the natural gas boilers at peak times when extra capacity is needed such as a heat wave of cold wave.

Don't know if many follow my comments over time but months or perhaps years ago by now, I started calling the no fossil fuels movement a "do without" movement. Sad thing being that scenario has come true much sooner than even I expected. A largely green-no nukes-no fossil fuels state has actually told the citizens to "do without". Somehow this glaring fact has not much blunted the true green believers. Well at least those living in states other than California.

Folks moving into my rural area from places including California have driven up property values and rents. Hope they learned a lesson and leave some of the foolish notions behind.
 

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Hello; Have Washington Journal on now. Just heard a mechanic call in and talk about how what he called a battery car has to be taken apart to change a battery pack. He did not mention any brand so I do not have an idea about that. He said the seats have to be removed for one thing. So a lot of labor to replace a battery pack. Leads to a question or few.

First does anyone have experience with this in terms of labor costs to change out a battery pack?
Next does anyone know the total costs to do such a change? That would include the cost of a battery + labor + any battery disposal fees. Note- not long ago a member posted about high disposal fees for the battery packs.
 

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Sorry, but your clueless. On EV vehicles and battery technology, and especially on hvac. Auto or the other.

They would survive longer than ICE vehicle, you are not draining the battery when stopped and if you need AC/heat they use a heat pump - way more efficient than running an ICE vehicle.
 

Mach VII

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Sorry, but your clueless. On EV vehicles and battery technology, and especially on hvac. Auto or the other.
Got anything to back that up?

https://www.reviewgeek.com/116956/does-running-the-a-c-or-heat-lower-your-ev-range/
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/el...ctric-vehicle-batteries-cope-in-traffic-jams/
https://www.teslaownersonline.com/t...m-in-winter-combusion-vehicle-or-tesla.20065/
https://www.eenews.net/articles/reporter-idles-in-ev-for-12-freezing-hours-to-test-what-happens/

Any ICE vehicle needs to run its engine to heat or cool the inside of the car, even running the seat heaters will require running the engine at times to keep the battery charged. Modern EV uses a heat pump that is very efficient and does not require the motor to be run at all.
 

sk47

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Got anything to back that up?

https://www.reviewgeek.com/116956/does-running-the-a-c-or-heat-lower-your-ev-range/
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/el...ctric-vehicle-batteries-cope-in-traffic-jams/
https://www.teslaownersonline.com/t...m-in-winter-combusion-vehicle-or-tesla.20065/
https://www.eenews.net/articles/reporter-idles-in-ev-for-12-freezing-hours-to-test-what-happens/

Any ICE vehicle needs to run its engine to heat or cool the inside of the car, even running the seat heaters will require running the engine at times to keep the battery charged. Modern EV uses a heat pump that is very efficient and does not require the motor to be run at all.
Hello; You are not correct or rather you are being disingenuous. The EV's main motor(s) {the one(s) which drive the wheels} indeed do not drive the AC mode of a heat pump. However, there must be an additional motor or motors to run the compressor itself and also some fan motors to circulate the air inside the vehicle.
The nature of an ICE is to use allows an advantage to run the AC because it is simple enough to take advantage of the rotation of the crankshaft with pulleys and belts.
Thing is an ICE can have separate electric motors to run accessories if desired. We can and do have electric coolant pumps.
A setup to run the AC compressor with an electric motor could be had on an ICE, but why have an extra complication of another electric motor which will require a battery with more capacity or even a second dedicated battery just for AC. Also, likely a bigger alternator.
You try to be clever in the deception apparently figuring we are too dumb to know the difference. This is an ICE enthusiasts' site, and you are trying to gaslight us. We know better.

Hello; from your first link:
"For example, in 2019, research from AAA suggested that when outside temperatures reach 95-degrees F during the summer and AC is used in a vehicle, the driving range can decrease by around 17%. And while that’s certainly not good, it’s not awful, either. The EPA estimates that gas-powered vehicles can lose upwards of 25% while using the AC."

The bold comment as read is not correct. I run the AC in both a small cart and a pickup. I get around 35-36 MPG in the car on overall average. On hot days when i run the AC the MPG may drop maybe one MPG. To lose 25% that would mean my average MPG should drop nearly 9 MPG's. That does not happen.
The pickup difference is even less affected on overall average. How do i know? I keep a running check of my MPG ongoing. I can and do calculate the MPG at every fill-up.

Only in special circumstances can i see the ICE MPG being greatly affected. That is when sitting still with the engine running. You get zero MPG when in that condition. Even so I can make a case that the situation is similar for the EV. The EV sitting still and running the AC mode is constantly drawing down power stored in the battery pack. The E miles per charge will also be zero.

I have so far only looked at the first link you posted. May have more to come after looking at the others.
 

sk47

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Got anything to back that up?

https://www.reviewgeek.com/116956/does-running-the-a-c-or-heat-lower-your-ev-range/
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/el...ctric-vehicle-batteries-cope-in-traffic-jams/
https://www.teslaownersonline.com/t...m-in-winter-combusion-vehicle-or-tesla.20065/
https://www.eenews.net/articles/reporter-idles-in-ev-for-12-freezing-hours-to-test-what-happens/

Any ICE vehicle needs to run its engine to heat or cool the inside of the car, even running the seat heaters will require running the engine at times to keep the battery charged. Modern EV uses a heat pump that is very efficient and does not require the motor to be run at all.
Hello; Not much new in the last three links. Did learn that some early EV's used inefficient resistance wire heaters. No surprise they used up battery charge quickly. The heat pumps are more efficient because they do not create heat energy. They find heat energy from somewhere (the air mostly) then move and concentrate that found energy to another place. So, less battery power is used.
No doubt the heat pump can be more efficient than resistance wire. I have both sorts in my home. My house was built back in the 1970's when the ads were all about how wonderful an electric heat home could be. Clean, quiet and no messing with coal or oil. Yes, they were all that. But they were also expensive to use. A previous owner of the house had a heat pump installed. I do not use the resistance heaters at all.

One thing about a resistance coil heater is they are cheap to build. Not so for a heat pump. Here is a guess about the EV given a glowing review in your links. Those heat pumps will add cost to the vehicle. Here is a way to check. Go to a store and compare price a small resistance heater with a dehumidifier of similar capacity. Bet the dehumidifier will be much more expensive.
How come a dehumidifier you may ask? Well, they run the same way as a heat pump or AC unit. They have a small compressor with coils same as an AC or heat pump unit. The process uses the coils in the same way. The coils which get cold cause gaseous moisture from the air to condense on them. The moisture then drips off as a liquid into a container (or out a drain hose).

My next guess is to get these long times of heat in freezing weather an EV with the larger battery pack are best. Larger battery packs equal more rang or more heat time when sitting. Here is my point. The heat pumps and large battery packs add a lot of cost to the EV. If you live in a money is no object world that may not matter.

I will say to you as i have to the other EV champions who post on here. I do not mind that you favor or want an EV. Any who find an EV to fit their lifestyle ought to be able to have one. I do not mind the EV's. More the mandates and the push to make my gasoline much more expensive just to push a "green" agenda. I do not want an EV as they exist. I do not wish to put roadblocks in the way of EV owners. I am very much against the mandates that threaten to take away my choice of an ICE.

I note you do not list an EV as being something you own. You are another EV champion who has enough sense to not own one.
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