HDPE/Road Race First Car

[BmacIL]

too many people with weakened studs due to the pressure applied by spacers

That's why you do extended studs and slip on spacers, just like race teams do, not adapters with new studs. The joint is mechanically no different than a different offset wheel done correctly.

305 fronts can be fitted with 11" wheels, correct offset (via wheel or spacers and extended studs) and the camber you'd want for track use anyway.

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[sonicc]

See one of the main reasons I decided to get a second car is because it's easier for me to write off a cheap Honda if I hit a wall than it is to write off the Mustang.

On the subject of getting passed by slower cars, don't even worry about this. You'll be slow for a while until you gain experience, and the only way to gain experience is to do track events and focus on being smooth. As you get smooth you'll be faster and start passing others. Can't be fast if you're fighting your car.

Regarding the last point, something like E36 or Golf will always be easier to drive in the beginning. Mustang is not the easiest car to get into and hit the track as novice.

 

[5-PT-OH]

Trying not to insult but I think you would be better off just spending money on HPDE events and consumables rather than buying another car. Even a cheap car will cost as much as 10 HPDE events. So I really don't see money being saved by buying another vehicle. Plus insurance, storage, etc. There are a lot of expenses. I bought a 944 thinking I would use it for small tracks and while I like the car, I'm probably going to sell it this spring. I finally figured out that it's not going to save me that much having a second, less expensive track car. Now - if you are going to sell the Mustang - that might save you money. But IMO the Mustang is a great car to learn in.

Whatever car you own you will want to take it easy while you learn. Learning on the Mustang means that your Mustang consumables will take longer to wear out until you gain more experience.

No insult taken, that’s why I’m here trying to get insight from those with a more experience.

Stick with the Mustang. I outgrew my Miata within the first year and spent over 15k including the price of the car. I was able to sell it for $7500. Granted I learned a lot, I am relearning my Mustang and lost a lot of money. Get yourself a go pro and a nice data logger, then work on 1 corner at a time pushing yourself. I wouldnt focus on lap times if I were you until Ive spent AT LEAST 4 days logging laps at whichever track. Maybe lay down a base time, but thats it.

Interesting idea with the data logging and process. I think that can apply with any car that’s taken on track.

I agree with everyone above.
Skip the miata.
Just track the stock stang with shitty all season or econo tires to learn car control.
Then put your PP1 tires back on.
Then get some NT01 or cup2 or etc
Then go 305/315 on econo SVE wheels or APEX wheels
Then 305 square(more oversteer).

Any concerns doing a track day with all seasons with this much brakes and power and not much grip? In my mind it seems like a good way to slide off the track. In my previous experience with all seasons it’s hard to predict (for me) how they react when they lose traction. Maybe type of AS tire has something to do with it?

 

[5-PT-OH]

That's why you do extended studs and slip on spacers, just like race teams do, not adapters with new studs. The joint is mechanically no different than a different offset wheel done correctly.

Simple as 1” hub centric spacer run 1” longer stud?

 

[BmacIL]

Simple as 1” hub centric spacer run 1” longer stud?

Indeed it is. Opmustang.com sells the ARP studs and spacers.

 

[Hack]

Any concerns doing a track day with all seasons with this much brakes and power and not much grip? In my mind it seems like a good way to slide off the track. In my previous experience with all seasons it’s hard to predict (for me) how they react when they lose traction. Maybe type of AS tire has something to do with it?

I would have no concerns at all. With less grip on track that means that everything happens more slowly. That gives you more time to think.

Don't worry about trying to be fast right away. Learn when to brake, when to turn in, how you can gradually get back on the throttle, etc. Figure out how to do all that, watch the corner workers, be aware of what's in your mirrors... There's a lot to do and it will be easier to learn with tires that have less traction. Take it easy, be smooth. Over time you will get faster if you are smooth.

 

[sigintel]

Purpose of track day is learning self control, consistency, discipline and how to control the car.

You will learn to repeatedly drive the same (shitty) line to be consistent first (not fast -fast is biproduct of everything else).
You will learn to approach the grip limits methodically.
You will learn to approach the balance (oversteer/understeer) limits methodically.

The lowest grip tire is the safest place to start.

A really good instructor might tell you to put 50 psi only in the rear tires on a wet day and go find a slick large empty parking lot, or meet with the instructor at the track in the rain.

Then 50 psi front only.

You are way better off learning balance and loss of yaw control at 48 mph than at 120 on a set of race slicks.

 

[OnTrack]

I agree with Sigintel, HPDE is about learning and understanding car dynamics on track. There is a lot to learn and personally wouldn't go to another car without being more involved in the hobby first. Another car will not help you overcome confidence on the track since many limitations to time in the beginning is from confidence. Buy track insurance from Lockton or Ontrackinsurance and have a great time driving the car. I bought a 2013 GT when they first came out and had no intention of tracking it, but then put 15K track miles on it the following years. I had a blast and got to learn my car before moving to another car.

If you're looking to be competitive, then figure out what class you would want to run. Miata's are great competitive cars, but so are C5Zs which are not that expensive. I haven't gotten my 350 on track yet since I just got it, but will get a C5 for time trials since the 350 will be difficult to be competitive and I won't strip down the car.

 

[Grintch]

Purpose of track day is learning self control, consistency, discipline and how to control the car.

You will learn to repeatedly drive the same (shitty) line to be consistent first (not fast -fast is biproduct of everything else).
You will learn to approach the grip limits methodically.
You will learn to approach the balance (oversteer/understeer) limits methodically.

The lowest grip tire is the safest place to start.

A really good instructor might tell you to put 50 psi only in the rear tires on a wet day and go find a slick large empty parking lot, or meet with the instructor at the track in the rain.

Then 50 psi front only.

You are way better off learning balance and loss of yaw control at 48 mph than at 120 on a set of race slicks.

Problem with this is with the wrong tire/setup, you can kill the tires in a single weekend. Even if you don't wear them out or blister them, many tires will get a lot louder after a few hard heat cycles, and having a loud drone from your DD tires is a pain in the butt (ear? ). So having a dedicated set of track wheels and tires pays off. If you don't mind being slow, I hear the Firestone Indy 500 tires will stand up to track abuse, but I would avoid typical all season tires.

 

[YoloBathsalts]

My honest advice is that you should just send it at the track. I understand the idea of learning in something that is cheaper and a bit less challenging. I would argue that learning in a GT and rising to the limit with time is pretty badass. I've tracked a few cars and now I'm preparing to track my GT so were in the same boat buddy. Coming from my EBM to the GT is like trying to drive twice the car. It'll be a few track days for me before I'm using everything the car has.

 

[Austinj427]

Looking into starting HPDE/Road Racing as a hobby, and bought the PP1 for this reason. After having the car for about 3K miles now, I realize I’m not gonna to be able to drive the car even close to it’s limits (yet).

I’m looking for some suggestions as to what you’d suggest that I can get into cheap and start learning how to drive. I always wanted to track a Honda CRX, but does front drive low power translate well to big heavy powerful rear drive well? Yes I know that I can drive the 5.0 to learn, but the old adage of “its more fun to drive a slow car fast vs. a fast car slow” has always resonated with me. Should’ve kept my old GTI...

Let me know your thoughts.

I know there are probably better guys on the forum for answering this but I'll give my $.02 as I have a little bit of experience with it.

I started out in FWD, went to AWD, then RWD and most recent, FWD again.

With enough seat time you'll be able to move from one style to the next without too many hiccups. I sort of wish I started with RWD, as I feel I'm most capable in a FWD car because it goes back to my roots, but what I have learned from a FWD still translates to a RWD car. I would say, personally, it's harder to get a handle on the extra weight/speed/limits of my RWD cars because they have 200-300 more HP than what I started with and way wider tires.

Your PP1 will do just fine for HPDE, especially if you are a new driver. These cars are easy to drive, if your car has drive modes, keep it in track and don't fully defeat the TCS.

My advice would be to take it slow, I had the mindset that I was always pushing for a goal when I started out and it didn't really allow me to learn what I needed to learn. The speed will come, you need to learn, for example, my 3rd track day ever at one of my local tracks, I had set a goal in my Focus ST. I fought all weekend to reach that goal and just barely missed it. The last track day I ran in my wife's Fiesta ST and I was 8 seconds per lap faster than my original goal when I started.

Get out there, take it slow, and listen to what your instructors tell you. I've had less than stellar instructors in the past and they are still a wealth of information if you can apply what they are attempting to convey.

 

[sigintel]

Problem with this is with the wrong tire/setup, you can kill the tires in a single weekend. Even if you don't wear them out or blister them, many tires will get a lot louder after a few hard heat cycles, and having a loud drone from your DD tires is a pain in the butt (ear? ). So having a dedicated set of track wheels and tires pays off. If you don't mind being slow, I hear the Firestone Indy 500 tires will stand up to track abuse, but I would avoid typical all season tires.

+1 for thoughts on heat cycling.
+2 Firestones

Killing off a set of tires in one weekend requires forcibly over driving the tire into saturation when the tires already look, smell, feel, respond overheated.
An instructor will never let him do this.

Drone is from saw tooth developed from tread block flex. Swap tires left to right for last session of the weekend to round those trailing edge saw tooths off the tread blocks. But yea, drone comes w tracking anything.

Drone is also a daily reminder to get your next track day scheduled. It compliments the V8 exhaust.

Keep in mind, as you heat cycle an OEM all season tire, the compound becomes stiffer with each full recovery (36hr) heat cycle as the peak temperature increases. Stiff is stronger and allows even higher peak temps next cycle. By the time his AS have 3/32 left, they will have 4-6 sessions of more aggressive driving left in them.

Understanding what the tire is doing, how it is wearing, why the feel is so different from day 1 to corded, how the alignment is setup, etc. - my very biased personal feeling is all of these experiences are more valuable vs any possible drone or tire replacement costs. For me the smell, feel, ridges and marbles across the tread and the feel of the car on a perfect alignment, pressure and temperature tire... oh man, do not give up that experience...

Firestone 500 are excellent track day budget tires.
Again, totally biased here (former Bridgestone/Firestone Tire Evaluation Engineer having worked at Tochigi(Bridgestone) and TPG/Firestone Proving Grounds (West Texas)).
The stock 2018 PP1 Michelins are exceptionally good. My rears have heat cycled up to have slightly less grip cold, but still have excellent grip once warmed.

 

[SVO MkII]

"I’m looking for some suggestions as to what you’d suggest that I can get into cheap and start learning how to drive."

If you really want to "learn how to drive", get an early Miata or a base 944 (or something similar). These are extremely well balanced cars WITHOUT tones of HP or driver aids. Even ABS can make it more difficult to learn proper threshold braking, etc. Add in stability and traction control and you aren't "learning" as much as you could. Lower powered cars also force you to brake late and carry speed through corners, if you want to be fast on track. Too often, inexperienced drivers in modern high powered cars drive them like a road course is a series of drag strips connected by school zones, i.e., fly down the straight, brake way too early, crawl through the corner, repeat.

Obviously, some good driver instruction will go a long way as well. Good luck!

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