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don't go too fast: first Z28 were selling like hotcakes. we're now talking about a generation that is now over. People interested into a Z28 are probably waiting for a Gen6 Z28...
I'm pretty sure the same will happen with the GT350 R or not R when Ford will discontinue 6th gen for a 7th gen.
The schedule of generations replacement should always be kept in mind.
Again, 1LE, Z28, GT350 ... Lotta talks on forum, few on the streets. These track focused cars, despite selling well, represent such a small portion of global Camaro/Mustang sales. And that's pretty normal. Coz let's be honest, if you're a track rat, you don't buy a Camaro or a Mustang... you actually buy a track car you towe to the track!
Still the Z28 was expensive. For sure. But it was expensive because it could. Chevolet had NO competition from ford or anyone else in front of them. Mustangs were crushed by the Z28 on a track. Really crushed, there was nothing to compete against. And even the more expensive and efficiant GT-R was quite often ranked under the Z28 for driving pleasure.
From what we hear on the web, the old Z28 still beats the GT350. And gets beaten by the GT350R. Gen 6th Camaro will probably have a Z28, prolly more expensive than a GT350R but faster. there nothing really "extreme" about the mustang, nothing you can"'t beat.
This is generation war. That's probably why Ford and GM issue their generations at different moment, to keep the momentum go back and forth ...
i'd love to come back here in like 5years to figure out who bought a GT350R among the people who were praising the Mustang and spitting on the camaro ... I guess very few ...
Moreover, people are currently comparing cars we don't know much about ... especially the Camaro that is not even sold yet!
garagelogic
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You seem to be the only one in this thread who's talking about a mythical 6thGen z/28. Everyone else is talking about the currently on-sale GT350R versus the currently on-sale z/28. And no, z/28's NEVER sold like hotcakes, even when they were first introduced. Nice revisionist history there.
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Todd15Fastback
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When did the z28 ever sell like hotcakes?
I find it unrealistic that the gt350/R will ever have a hard time being sold. Simply because of the price tag. First there will be a wave that will be sold with adm, then afterwards they will be ordered, bought, and sold like clockwork. Ford gave the customers options, chevrolet did not...what does it say about the z28, when ford has built a car that is 10k cheaper that will crush the z28?
What innovation or new thinking found it's way into the camaro? Ls7 was old, ccbs have been around for a while, r comps, special dampers, some aero bits...that's about it. Nothing special despite the insane price tag. Ford has offered something special, carbon fiber track wheels on a sub 70k car, a 5.2 fpc v8 with over 500hp on a sub 50k car As far as I'm concerned ford blew chevy out of the water with this one, sort of like the gt500 vs the zl1.
As far as comparing the gen5 vs gen6. The gt350 starts as a 2015 model so yes it should be directly compared to another 2015 model...the z28. The camaro had 1 year to claim victory, and now it has been topped. Balls in chevy court now. Let's hope for a wicked fast gen6 z28 that isn't overpriced like the last one.
I won't be able to afford an r, but the 49k base price for the gt350 is within reach for me. Which is why many are jumping ship and even considering this car over high end makes, even corvettes and camaro owners are giving this thing serious consideration.
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Very true...that should say even more about what's wrong with the gen5 z28. The z28 used to be an awesome ride, and mullets everywhere were picking them up and taking their bitches to the honky tonk downtown. Don't get me wrong, mustangs these days are also expensive. They just present a better value than their camaro counterparts. Less is better when were talking about the price of a pony car.
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68fbjjz109
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However any Z28 that isn't a first or fifth generation pales in comparison.
speedracermustangfan
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Realistically, chevy could have taken a 1le and shoved the ls7 into it and that would have been an immense value. The 1le is 37k otd, the difference would be less than 10k to swap the ls3 for the ls7. That car would have had my respect.
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From the other thread...
The GT350TP is more z28 speed. Between the saved shifts, PtW, MRC and footprint, the z28 doesn't stand a chance. Still need 3rd party results, a shoe driving for a manufacture is fun but I want to see how the under achieving media does.
The GT350TP is more z28 speed. Between the saved shifts, PtW, MRC and footprint, the z28 doesn't stand a chance. Still need 3rd party results, a shoe driving for a manufacture is fun but I want to see how the under achieving media does.
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I don't think they could justify that to the z06 owners that a camaro got their halo engine for 30k-40k cheaper. and the ls7 would way over power a 1le. It would not be a balanced car. Woulda been Pretty cool in my opinion but not a proper Z28.
I think GM should take lessons from Ford and the GT350. If they offer a z28 around the 50k price range with an lt6 type engine (think ls1 to ls6) with track oriented brakes/suspension and some more drastic weight savings it could be a decent competitor and a (SALES)success. Then have an R version for the all out race car.
I think that's the problem with the 5th gen car. There were no lower tier options for a cheap Z28. Comparing the Z28(@$72k) vs GT350R(62k) taking into account the 2 year difference(yes it will be a 2016 model before any of you can really get one) and generation gap 5th vs 6th, there is no shame in GM losing this battle. It does not diminish the feat that the Z28 accomplished turning the overweight SEDAN platform into a track monster. The s550 is a superior starting point in everyday which to me explains why Ford could beat it for $10k cheaper(possibly 17k cheaper if the GT350TP~55k does in fact best it) a year(or 2) later. The Z28 is awesome. The GT350R just happens to be newer, faster and more awesome
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thePill
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You would think they would begin taking the pointers from Ford. If they would have followed the Boss 302 with something competitive and compliant, it would be much more interesting today. The 1LE wouldn't have been enough to handle the Boss so they decided on the LS7. The philosophy back then was, the supercharged ZL1 was not the recipe they were looking for in this match up. I think eventually we will find out that while in testing, the 1LE didn't have a dominate advantage over the Boss 302 outside of Milford.
After that, the gloves came off. Chevy had no problem using a Boss in the media comparisons yet they still didn't have a Camaro to deal with it on the track. Oh, you like to pick on an NA engine??? The 2013 GT500 was born... the Camaro was never seen at the drag strip again.
The z28 , now Chevy's 3rd attempt at one, was somehow approved for class racing against the Boss in IMSA and SCCA. Not only didn't it meet class requirements for output, it had either all its equipment removed for some Pratt/Miller race sh!i OR, had the entire order sheet waivered, regardless of the equipment was previously banned or not...
Why won't they take lessons from Ford? Because they can just cut corners and get away with it...
Trackaholic
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The Z28 is a great car, but IMO is overpriced.
I was always a big fan of the 1LE, and always felt like the Z28 was taking previous generation Vette parts and charging too much for them. The difference between an LS7 crate motor and LS3 crate motor is ~$9000. The R-comps are maybe $1000 more than decent street tires, the CCB's are maybe $5000. Shocks had better not be more than $4000, given that you can get the Mag shocks for less than $2000. If you assume those numbers are roughly correct, you end up with a $21,000 premium over a 1LE. Since the 1LE's were about $40,000, I think a Z28 should have been around $60,000 to $65,000 at most (and that's with the optional A/C and radio).
So, IMO the Z28 was about $10,000 too expensive, and I think it shows. It was also very one dimensional, which limited the market to the enthusiasts. Dealers also pulled the crazy ADM crap when it first came out as well, but have since recieved their comeuppance. IMO, GM needs to drop the price to something closer to $60,000, and I think you'll see them start selling (well, maybe not now that the GT350 is out, but much will depend on how the GT350 can handle without the sticky tires (GT350R is too hard to get to be a good comparison at this point IMO)).
At $75,000 it is tough to justify the one dimensional Z28 (no matter how awesome a track car it is), against the multidimensional cars like the C7 Vette, BMW M3/4, and various other higher end vehicles.
I know for me, I would have given up the focused prowess of the Z28 for the more general capability of the C7 Z51. At $60,000, the Z28 holds a price advantage that IMO makes it a much better buy.
The issue with the GT350 right now is how difficult it is to get at a reasonable price. And I think the GT350 (non-R) will end up being slower than the Z28, but much more streetable. If you can find one at a good price, I think it is a much more interesting car than the Z28, but not as track focused.
The GT350R IMO will be even that much more interesting than the Z28, but its scarcity will make the comparisons interesting. Hopefully the ADM on those will eventually go away as well, at which point a $65,000 Z28 will seem overpriced.
For the Gen 6 Camaro, I'm not sure where GM will go with the engine. Can they keep the LS7 going? If the Camaro loses some weight, then maybe they could continue with the LS7 in a Z28 model. The problem is that the LT1 already makes the same torque up to ~5000 RPM, so will people see the benefit of the LS7? Then there's the LT4, but a track focused car like the Z28 should not have a heavy S/C over the front IMO. It's perfect for something like the ZL1, but not on the Z28. GM clearly tried to make the C7 Z06 a replacement for both the old C6 Z06 and C6 ZR1, but I think they leaned too far towards the ZR1 side of things (excellent street car and very fast at the track due to power, but also heavier and maybe not as well balanced as it could have been).
Personally I'd like GM to work on a version of the LT1 that eliminates the AFM valves and lifters (that's the cylinder deactivation), revs to 7000 like the LS7, and see what kind of power they can get out of something like that. Maybe it's "only" 520 HP (compared to 650 with the LT4), but I think that's the type of engine that the track based Camaro (and Vette for that matter) deserve.
Ford got the engine on the GT350 nailed. Not sure if GM has the desire do something similar, or if they'll rely on forced induction to get there. Maybe that, coupled with sales of the existing Z28, will decide whether there actually is a new Z28 at all.
-T
I was always a big fan of the 1LE, and always felt like the Z28 was taking previous generation Vette parts and charging too much for them. The difference between an LS7 crate motor and LS3 crate motor is ~$9000. The R-comps are maybe $1000 more than decent street tires, the CCB's are maybe $5000. Shocks had better not be more than $4000, given that you can get the Mag shocks for less than $2000. If you assume those numbers are roughly correct, you end up with a $21,000 premium over a 1LE. Since the 1LE's were about $40,000, I think a Z28 should have been around $60,000 to $65,000 at most (and that's with the optional A/C and radio).
So, IMO the Z28 was about $10,000 too expensive, and I think it shows. It was also very one dimensional, which limited the market to the enthusiasts. Dealers also pulled the crazy ADM crap when it first came out as well, but have since recieved their comeuppance. IMO, GM needs to drop the price to something closer to $60,000, and I think you'll see them start selling (well, maybe not now that the GT350 is out, but much will depend on how the GT350 can handle without the sticky tires (GT350R is too hard to get to be a good comparison at this point IMO)).
At $75,000 it is tough to justify the one dimensional Z28 (no matter how awesome a track car it is), against the multidimensional cars like the C7 Vette, BMW M3/4, and various other higher end vehicles.
I know for me, I would have given up the focused prowess of the Z28 for the more general capability of the C7 Z51. At $60,000, the Z28 holds a price advantage that IMO makes it a much better buy.
The issue with the GT350 right now is how difficult it is to get at a reasonable price. And I think the GT350 (non-R) will end up being slower than the Z28, but much more streetable. If you can find one at a good price, I think it is a much more interesting car than the Z28, but not as track focused.
The GT350R IMO will be even that much more interesting than the Z28, but its scarcity will make the comparisons interesting. Hopefully the ADM on those will eventually go away as well, at which point a $65,000 Z28 will seem overpriced.
For the Gen 6 Camaro, I'm not sure where GM will go with the engine. Can they keep the LS7 going? If the Camaro loses some weight, then maybe they could continue with the LS7 in a Z28 model. The problem is that the LT1 already makes the same torque up to ~5000 RPM, so will people see the benefit of the LS7? Then there's the LT4, but a track focused car like the Z28 should not have a heavy S/C over the front IMO. It's perfect for something like the ZL1, but not on the Z28. GM clearly tried to make the C7 Z06 a replacement for both the old C6 Z06 and C6 ZR1, but I think they leaned too far towards the ZR1 side of things (excellent street car and very fast at the track due to power, but also heavier and maybe not as well balanced as it could have been).
Personally I'd like GM to work on a version of the LT1 that eliminates the AFM valves and lifters (that's the cylinder deactivation), revs to 7000 like the LS7, and see what kind of power they can get out of something like that. Maybe it's "only" 520 HP (compared to 650 with the LT4), but I think that's the type of engine that the track based Camaro (and Vette for that matter) deserve.
Ford got the engine on the GT350 nailed. Not sure if GM has the desire do something similar, or if they'll rely on forced induction to get there. Maybe that, coupled with sales of the existing Z28, will decide whether there actually is a new Z28 at all.
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I'm not on Camaro5/6. I'm just here because I currently have time to come and as I was seeking info about GT350 just to get informed
I arrived over here thx to google. And was shocked by the level of fanboyism and violence people can express towards a brand, its products and owners.
Few people here are above the pack by praising both cars and being happy with the competition and the great products it offers.
to each his own.
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Maybe you're right. unfortunately, we will have to wait for the death of this mustang generation to figure out. But maybe you will be!
there's nothing exotic about the Z28. The only thing would be that they proposed customers a car that didn't exist into the pony car world. A track focused beast (no offense to laguna seca ... just not the same league)
Chevy could price it high because it was alone on the market. And maybe it was just a choice. Just like the new SS. It's more expensive than the Mustang that's true.
Maybe Chevy is just looking at different customers. Maybe chevy decided it'd be better to make more money on fewer cars. Where Ford maybe just wants to make less money but sell more.
Maybe they got tired of mid level workers buying a cheap V8 for ricer mods. Maybe it's about having new customers, more refined, with more money. Maybe older ones. Just maybe.
I mean, I could understand Ford being sick of the stupid 17 years old rich girls driving her shiny vert' mustang to high school ... just like Chevy might be tired of the mullet - Nascar fan painting flames on his doors ...
I'm not into "sales" war. I mean, I'm not specifically happy to know I will see everywhere people driving my car. I know Camaros and Mustangs aren't Ferraris and you will see some. But some is something, too much is too much.
I totally understand the role of the price tag into chosing a car. But I also think that if the difference between a GT and SS or GT350R and Z28 is such a problem, maybe people should save money to secure their house, health insurance, kids college fees ... instead of paying for a sportscar that is nothing close to a useful car. If you have hard times gathering money to pay for a rolex, maybe you should buy an hamilton and spend money on important things.
So I trully wonder how important is the price when you buy these "insane" cars. Coz nobody needs 400+ hp for daily driving ... especially in the US where speed limits are lowwwwwww.
I think both cars are awesome. To each is own (for example, lotta people talk about the weight, but I do like ehavy cars, i like to feel and play with the weight.).
As far as things are going it looks like: 5th gen SS < Mustang GT (pp or not) < 5th Gen 1LE = 6th gen SS = or < GT350 = or < 6th gen 1LE (if any) < 5th Gen Z28 < GT350R < 6th gen Z28 (if any)
I feel like there's not much to argue. The full set up is well made between Ford and Chevrolet (it's so well done I even sometimes wonder if the two companies aren't agreeing on the set up before doing their cars ...).
To each his own, to each is car, to each the car his money can afford.
And we're not even talking about the look. It is subjective but i guess also plays a big role in buyers decision. I don't know, but I'm afraid the new mustang looks, depsite looking "new" may get "old" pretty fast. Just like these futuristic looking japanese cars looking old after 2 years (civic, subaru ...). no offense to mustang owners. just a thought
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