GT350 vs. Z/28

[Stuntman]

Stuntman, I think you have a serious issue about your initial assumptions being incorrect. Most of this side-banter is to somehow redeem yourself in your technical assumptions.

Let it go.

The above statement about the whole Grand Am/IMSA issue is painfully accurate. It's a f@cked up situation but it happens. We will not see factory racing anytime soon.

The cage was lame, advertising caged times is even worse. I have serious doubt any Pony car can lap the Ring in under 8 without additional support. The whole Ring scene is something gullible young people eat up. The ZL1 was stacked, it looked like a chicken coupe inside. That is a big help and at some point, a better cage design could be a huge factor in Ring times. If you don't believe that, you haven't been around it.

Stop with the scales, you made a mistake, it happens. Not a lot of people outside of Pro/Am know that.

I do my best for Grand Am/IMSA though, as you will see in my previous post months ago, I am not pleased with the direction. I don't watch GTS either because a Camaro ZL1 and KIA compete there. At one time, they were down to earth. When Paul won 6 and the Championship. Or T1.... A composite bodied Camaro should not be allowed to race there.

So what do you make of the 350 running around Nurburgring having a Cage?

I did not make a mistake on the scales. I tested it on a Mustang and deflating both rear tires made a 0.014% front to rear weight distribution change. YOU are trying to cover and bury your incorrect statement that changing front to rear tire pressures can affect front to rear weight distribution by 2-3%. You recommended to people to just adjust their tire pressures to get an even 50/50 weight distribution by changing their tire pressures which is not only outrageous and incorrect, but dangerous advice.

Again, only the hood, rear trunk and doors are Carbon on the Z28 in CTSCC. The fenders and roof are not.

Enough with the tube frame please, it was funny, it's over now. No the GT3 car isn't a tube frame from the driver back (as you said). An OEM front section does not weld well to a tube frame structure.

What it all came down to, you can Google better than me. Where I rely on some logic, experience, education and common sense... Most all of it committed to memory :lol:

Here it is again, you're twisting what I said around. I NEVER said the car had a 'tube frame'. I said (for what, the 5th time in the matter of a day?) the VDS car is a unibody with the rear seat area gutted/tubbed to fit a transaxle and supported by a carbon structure. I asked you to explain how to fit a transaxle in an S197 without cutting out the rear seat area, and you refuse to acknowledge this question.

I don't rely on google atall, you just refuse to accept the facts and your constant manipulation of the conversation makes you a very sly, cunning, misleading person who again, would make a great politician. As far as the technical side goes, you either are VERY smart and twist what I say around to cover for your errors, or you're truly incompetent and don't understand what you're talking about. So i'm not sure what would classify you better: a liar or phony.

This is getting old and i'm tired of repeating myself and listening to your constant lies and twisting of facts and truths. I can show you the scales of the car I did the tire pressure test on, but what's the point, it only shifted the nose weight 1lb and you will probably say that I falsified that data. This topic is over; you were wrong on the tire pressure affecting weight distribution by 2-3%. Get over it.

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[thePill]

The Z/28.R was granted an almost 500lbs weight reduction initially and until just recently retained that. That is a lot of weight to drop... No one else in the class is allowed that nor do they replace panels.

The GT350's are using cages at the Ring, probably a reason there is never an official time from Ford. The cars MacP system also needs help here, something the S550 has an advantage over the 197. The strut tower triangulation is present now. Even at VIR speeds, the z28 was bending bad, that "diamonding" is seen in the picture. It's reaching its front inside wheel forward... "Pawing at the turn". Unfortunately, a front section support is required to fix this in both z28 and GT350/Boss. At least at those speeds. Nurburgring is a turd for validation on what we get at the dealer. Your a fool to think otherwise.

So now you are scaling cars? I'm sorry, you were pretty adamant that this did not occur at all. 2% is just a few pound out of the rear and a few in the front. Bam, the wonders of leverage.

If I lean my seat back I can change the distribution in completely stock car. I'm glad your experimenting with these things, best way to learn.


Don't get upset, it was a funny comment. Not a lot of people know the dirty tricks.


As far as lying, I think you are desperately trying to recover from such statements. I don't really hold them over you, they were just funny and it has led this conversation down an endless path of self healing. Good job on the regs, that is very important. It still doesn't make me feel better about the situation.

Appearently the z28 is allowed to use its CC brakes in GTS and replaced the zl1. Because they needed that to beat the KIA.

http://www.world-challenge.com/drivers-teams/vts-info.html

http://www.world-challenge.com/drivers-teams/vts-info.html

So.... enough PWC Camaro talk please. It should have been that was from the beginning. I wonder if the IMSA cars are altered.

The Camaro uses a 110.5 inch wheelbase instead of the stock platforms 112.5. It is an entirely different car. The z28's info is missing (conveniently) so we can't tell.

The Boss uses the stock 107.1.

Also, notice the LS7 is unrestricted in GTS. Um, GTS is a 300-400RWHP ONLY class. Again, a HUGE power advantage in this class. Championship bound its first SCCA season.

 

[Sabre]

thePill....if Grand Am/IMSA, CTSCC, PWC, GTS didn't exist, you'd have no reason to be complaining. As I stated several months ago, you're whole modues operandi of this thread seems to be a hatred of the racing series for letting the Camaro compete without meeting established specifications that other competitors are required to meet. There's nothing wrong with that, it that's what you want to do....but to continually rag on the Camaro makes no sense. It is what it is. Start another thread and campaign for all of the racing series to mend their ways and be consistent with their rules.

Stuntman has continued to debunk and correct your errant facts, figures and statements. Having spent a couple of years involved in Grand Am and a year in PWC, I can say he is pretty spot on with his analysis. Oh...and walk into any garage area where a crew chief has is car on the scales and then suggest he start letting air out of tires to shift the weight bias.....but, be ready to be laughed out of the garage.

Your narcissistic need to be the first, biggest and the best at everything has lead you down your own personal primrose path.

 

[thePill]

thePill....if Grand Am/IMSA, CTSCC, PWC, GTS didn't exist, you'd have no reason to be complaining. As I stated several months ago, you're whole modues operandi of this thread seems to be a hatred of the racing series for letting the Camaro compete without meeting established specifications that other competitors are required to meet. There's nothing wrong with that, it that's what you want to do....but to continually rag on the Camaro makes no sense. It is what it is. Start another thread and campaign for all of the racing series to mend their ways and be consistent with their rules.

Stuntman has continued to debunk and correct your errant facts, figures and statements. Having spent a couple of years involved in Grand Am and a year in PWC, I can say he is pretty spot on with his analysis. Oh...and walk into any garage area where a crew chief has is car on the scales and then suggest he start letting air out of tires to shift the weight bias.....but, be ready to be laughed out of the garage.

Your narcissistic need to be the first, biggest and the best at everything has lead you down your own personal primrose path.

There is nothing wrong with that?

What!?!??

Did you know the 5th Gen is allowed a shortened wheelbase in PWC?

Yet Chevy and its fans are under the impression it's the real deal.

Stuntman brought good info, if only that was always the case I wouldn't treat him like that. It was his "matter of factly's" that weren't so matter of fact that I found issues with.

Again, let's distract people from the fact the z28 still had a HUGE power advantage for an entire season and then some. As long as the restrictions were removed and thePill was wrong doesn't mean the z28's progress is genuine. It's not...


....and this is pretty much all to distract you from the laundry list of my home runs. Because I do have a lot of those here.

I'm narcissistic? What is this, MTV: The Pill World?

 

[traxiii]

Wow, carbon brakes, and who the heck is Blackdog Speed Shop, where they get all the replacement rear suspension parts?

 

[Sasuketr]

How will a gt350r fair against a c7 zo6? The reason i m asking is it is highly possible that we can see a stripped down next gen camaro with an lt4 engine! I dont know what will they call it, z28 or zl1 whatever! But that car sure as hell can't match the times of the c7 zo6 or even weight! So i m seeing a 3650 lbs stripped down lt4 powered camaro vs gt350r in the future! Is this apples to apples? What do u guys think?

 

[thePill]

How will a gt350r fair against a c7 zo6? The reason i m asking is it is highly possible that we can see a stripped down next gen camaro with an lt4 engine! I dont know what will they call it, z28 or zl1 whatever! But that car sure as hell can't match the times of the c7 zo6 or even weight! So i m seeing a 3650 lbs stripped down lt4 powered camaro vs gt350r in the future! Is this apples to apples? What do u guys think?

It will be Apples to Apples on Camaro5.

 

[thePill]

Wow, carbon brakes, and who the heck is Blackdog Speed Shop, where they get all the replacement rear suspension parts?

I think the LS7 is restricted in some way, it says in Appendix A. I wouldn't be shocked if it wasn't much. It's a 300-400hp class, an LS7 shouldnt be there.

GT is 450-525, it would fit in there but get its ass handed to it. Chevy selectively positioned the z28 with the Boss and the 1LE with the GT. It has kinda back fired both times.

 

[1320']

No way will a stripped down Camaro with the LT4 be in at 3,650 without lots and lots of CF and other semi exotic material. Supercharged systems add a lot of weight. Look at the Hellcat..175lbs more than a standard SRT. The ZL1 is over 250 lbs more than a like equipped 2SS.

The lightest a LT4 Camaro would come in at is about 4,000lbs, give or take 50.

 

[thePill]

With the Carbon Ceramic Brake restriction removed in PWC, I feel the CCB GT350 spy shots were of the 302S replacement. Perhaps the fronts were only used as a tooling trial to see if they cleared the R (or stock) wheel for homologation. That would make sense because the front is largest. Chances we already seen one just with the wheels covered up. We know for a fact there is a GT350R-S coming soon, I think it only makes sense. With so many relaxed regulations now, it may only need to be an option. I can't remember how much weight it saved on the z28.

Another thing that occurred to me is, the 110.5 inch wheelbase they use. Is it possible the 6th Gen's foot print is being looked at in GTS? Ford took note of the GT3 Mustangs increased track and applied it to the S550. Maybe the 6th Gen is a 110.5 inch WB after all. The M4's is 110 now although many were up in arms about the new 3 and 4 series being less "Racing" now and more "Sales". Sales are important, I'm sure the Mustangs rear seats turn a few off.

 

[Tm@c1965]

This is good stuff

I follow this thread daily. I suspect that the GT350 will beat the current Z28. But I believe the new SS will be a faster car than the 15 GT (only because they have a target to beat with a later release--no brainer--if the SS ends up being slower, than GM is a bunch of idiots)

 

[Stuntman]

Even at VIR speeds, the z28 was bending bad, that "diamonding" is seen in the picture. It's reaching its front inside wheel forward... "Pawing at the turn". Unfortunately, a front section support is required to fix this in both z28 and GT350/Boss. At least at those speeds. Nurburgring is a turd for validation on what we get at the dealer. Your a fool to think otherwise.

Wow, you must have superhuman abilities to see flex from a photo of a Z28 going around a corner, when the tilt could easily be due to the car's caster when turning. I guess manufacturers and race teams no longer need K&C rigs to test deflection if they have you to analyze pictures

So now you are scaling cars? I'm sorry, you were pretty adamant that this did not occur at all. 2% is just a few pound out of the rear and a few in the front. Bam, the wonders of leverage.

If I lean my seat back I can change the distribution in completely stock car. I'm glad your experimenting with these things, best way to learn.

I've cornerbalanced cars for years. Which is why I immediately pointed out your hugely erroneous statement that you can change front-rear weight distribution by 2-3% simply by 'adjusting tire pressures'. I urged you to test this, which you never have done, and I now told you the results... on a Mustang. I NEVER said it does not occur atall. I said the weight would change by an "insignificant" amount, and i'm sorry, but 0.014% is insignificant and no where near the 2-3% that you claimed.

Moving the entire seat (and a driver's weight of say 150-175lbs) back 4-5" can get you a decent change; i'm not sure about reclining a seat, which you claimed would lower the entire car's CG by a noticeable amount - which it would not to any significant degree.

As far as lying, I think you are desperately trying to recover from such statements. I don't really hold them over you, they were just funny and it has led this conversation down an endless path of self healing. Good job on the regs, that is very important. It still doesn't make me feel better about the situation.

I'm not recovering from anything. I stand by what I've said and i've been consistent. You continue to be vague, twist my words around and facts around, lie, and do everything to support your GM-hating propoganda, even at the expense of truth.

I've corrected you about incorrect statements on Fords, GM, Physics, etc... I'm not biased other than pointing out where you're wrong. And hey, we actually have someone on this forum who has worked on GrandAm and PWC teams for years (sabre) and he's agreed with me in correcting your lies and errors. I think his credibility is far greater than yours.

**Why the hell are you so adamant about rallying everyone behind you to have Ford limit and cripple the Mustang to fit an arbitrary set of rules for Club racing, in a class that I doubt a handful of people on here are even racing in, and a class that you likely have never, or ever will race in?

You would be the only person to be upset if Ford announced a carbon-fiber tubbed, 10,000rpm 700hp V8 with carbon brakes, wheels, and Magnaride suspension for $35K because it wouldn't "fit in a clubracing class". While this is a fantasy, I think it's idiotic to want Ford to limit the advancement of a car. If they deliver an awesome motor, suspension, chassis for a great value to the consumer, LET THEM. Quit harping on wanting old, obsolete technology, racing series have and always will adapt. There was a day when 18" wheels were never used in racing, they were too big, heavy and 'blingy'. Now it's the standard. Wake up and get with the times man, you live in a delusional fantasy world.

 

[Todd15Fastback]

I've corrected you about incorrect statements on Fords, GM, Physics, etc... I'm not biased other than pointing out where you're wrong. And hey, we actually have someone on this forum who has worked on GrandAm and PWC teams for years (sabre) and he's agreed with me in correcting your lies and errors. I think his credibility is far greater than yours.

Playing devils advocate here...How do we know his (sabre) credentials are really what he says? Remember, we all know, you believe everything that you read on the internet. Just saying....

 

[Erik427]

Chevy being allowed to run a 7 liter motor vs a 5 liter motor is a joke. Even worse when you consider BMW. Should have known this would happen after nascar bought imsa. This would be fair "IF" the rules allowed it from the get go.

 

[Sabre]

There is nothing wrong with that?

What!?!??

Did you know the 5th Gen is allowed a shortened wheelbase in PWC?

Yet Chevy and its fans are under the impression it's the real deal.

Stuntman brought good info, if only that was always the case I wouldn't treat him like that. It was his "matter of factly's" that weren't so matter of fact that I found issues with.

Again, let's distract people from the fact the z28 still had a HUGE power advantage for an entire season and then some. As long as the restrictions were removed and thePill was wrong doesn't mean the z28's progress is genuine. It's not...


....and this is pretty much all to distract you from the laundry list of my home runs. Because I do have a lot of those here.

I'm narcissistic? What is this, MTV: The Pill World?

When I said there's nothing wrong with that, I meant that there is nothing wrong with railing against the racing series for various competitors rules packages. Continually complaining about the Camaro in it's current race trim is pretty useless...it is what it is...your energy would be better channeled toward the racing series that permits it. Start a thread...start a campaign...go to a race and shout at the officials...whatever.

As to what world you live in....you'd probably be just the type that MTV would be looking at for one of their reality shows...someone who stirs the pot and creates drama for nothing more than his own satisfaction and TV ratings.

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