GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

Composite body glued to an OEM front section? You really are dense and have no clue man... I've already explained it multiple times but your ignorance is preventing you from understanding. You still refuse to answer:

I asked you to explain how to fit a transaxle in an S197 without cutting out the rear seat area, and you refuse to acknowledge this question.


The inside front tire lifting has to do with a stiff chassis and a high front roll couple stiffness & soft rear roll couple. To simplify things: Stiff chassis, stiff front bar, soft rear bar = inside front wheel lifting. This is why you commonly see race BMW's, race Mustangs, and NASCARs (on road courses) lift the inside front wheel when powering out of a corner.

Maybe you should start reading some of my posts, instead of skimming over it, misunderstanding, and twisting my words around later to try to paint me as ignorant.

I doubt you even know what a K&C rig is (since it's not just a 'computer') without googling it :headbonk:

You explained it wrong a couple of times, I still don't know what you mean.

A torsional table? Are you doing the calculations on paper using weights? Yes, the computer will tell you what's going on. It's very similar to the Chief.

Now your just being a girl.

Discuss the questions I asked. You never do... The answer is yes, all cars, especially ones with a MacP strut, benefits from a cage. Don't be silly...

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[Stuntman]

You explained it wrong a couple of times, I still don't know what you mean.

A torsional table? Are you doing the calculations on paper using weights? Yes, the computer will tell you what's going on. It's very similar to the Chief.

Now your just being a girl.

Discuss the questions I asked. You never do... The answer is yes, all cars, especially ones with a MacP strut, benefits from a cage. Don't be silly...

You are so dense its like talking to a wall. The example of race BMWs, Mustangs, and NASCAR demonstrated stiff chassis, stiff front bar, soft rear bar = inside wheel lift, since these 3 are primary examples of lifting inside front wheels. Google any of them with the word 'cornering' or 'wheel lift' and you will see tons of pics of these cars with inside front tires in the air.

I never explained the VDS' car 'wrong'. You just don't comprehend what i'm saying and mistake 'carbon tub support structure' with 'tube frame' and 'composite body glued...'. All of these topics are seeming to be never ending since you simply do not have the ability to understand. :frusty:

 

[thePill]

I don't know what you were trying to say about the VDS car. You said it wasn't an OEM shell, it is.

It is neat to think maybe Ford did the R&D for the S550's foot print in GT3. It would have been pretty close with the track increase.

I think this entire back and forth has proved a few things.

1.) The z28 has a few advantages in Motorsport. The two classes it competes in are GS w/ 405rwhp max output and GTS limited to 400rwhp. It did so with 470rwhp and should have classes unrestricted in GT.

2.) Major changes needed made to class one in CTSC. The GS.R had more in common with the OEM SS than the Z/28.R does with the z28.

3.) We see there is actually a desire for a shorter wheelbase 5th Gen. This should help support my "Golden Ratio" gripe with that car.

That is some very important factors to overlook in Racing.

Other than that, the OEM car wasn't worth it. It is almost impossible to compete with and illegal in most cases in more than just CCB's. If it is such a good car as is, why does it need a reduced wheelbase? Or 100 more HP?, or equal weight? Or allowed 15.5 inch rotors in a class limited to just 15 inches (380mm)?

Nurburgring is for little boys who talk about single lap times. It's a great test bed but with all the tubing, it's far from stock. If the z28 is pawing at the corner at VIR, it would have went off track at the Ring. No shame, most cars would. Marketing those times is deceiving, plain and simple.

 

[Stuntman]

I don't know what you were trying to say about the VDS car. You said it wasn't an OEM shell, it is.

I NEVER said it wasn't an OEM shell. You really need to STOP LYING and putting words in my mouth. I said (many times) the VDS car is an oem unibody with a cage, and the rear seat/fuel tank area was gutted 'tubbed' for a carbon support structure that mounts the transaxle and IRS. I am going to stop explaining this to you; so if you don't want me to call you a liar, stop doing this.

Below in red:

I think this entire back and forth has proved a few things.

1.) The z28 has a few advantages in Motorsport. The two classes it competes in are GS w/ 405rwhp max output and GTS limited to 400rwhp. It did so with 470rwhp and should have classes unrestricted in GT.

This "405whp max output" is made up by you. You previously stated that the GS class was 405BHP max output and then changed your tune after citing many examples where competitors are making more than 405bhp (like the M3 and 911 GTS from the factory); and now you are continuing to state this because it's in an IMSA fan guide; which is highly erroneous. It's not in a rulebook

2.) Major changes needed made to class one in CTSC. The GS.R had more in common with the OEM SS than the Z/28.R does with the z28.
Not true. Bodywork (front splitter, and rear spoiler) in the GS.R was not on the SS.

3.) We see there is actually a desire for a shorter wheelbase 5th Gen. This should help support my "Golden Ratio" gripe with that car.
Proof of this shorter wheelbase?

That is some very important factors to overlook in Racing.

Nurburgring is for little boys who talk about single lap times. It's a great test bed but with all the tubing, it's far from stock. If the z28 is pawing at the corner at VIR, it would have went off track at the Ring. No shame, most cars would. Marketing those times is deceiving, plain and simple.
Lifting an inside front tire is not considered bad. Many racecars do this due to stiff caged chassis'. A flimsy chassis would not allow this; so it's actually a good thing, which is funny that you're trying to argue this is a weakpoint in the Z28. Ring times are marketing hoopla and pretty useless; so I don't care much about them

 

[thePill]

Nope, 405rwhp in GS (on their site) and 300-400 in GTS (in the rules)

 

[Stuntman]

Nope, 405rwhp in GS (on their site) and 300-400 in GTS (in the rules)

That's an erroneous "FAN GUIDE". It does not say anything about specific power numbers in the rulebook.

Fan guide:

Grand Sport (GS) - As with all Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge cars, GS class cars start out as stock, production model cars that race with minor modifications only. The GS class contains the top performing cars and include the Aston Martin Vantage, BMW M3, Chevy Camaro GS.R, Ford Mustang Boss 302 R, Nissan 370Z, Porsche 911 and Subaru WRX-STI. The engines are tuned to produce between 350 and 405 horsepower and are cabable of speeds in excess of 160 mph.
Not correct at all. M3's make 414hp from the factory; Boss' 444hp, Porsche GTS 408hp. GS cars are also doing ~180mph at daytona

Street Tuner (ST) - The ST class is also production based with much of the car using the same stock parts you would find on your passenger car. This class is limited to four- and six-cylinder and rotary engines. The ST class includes the Audi S3, BMW 128 and 325, Honda Civic Si, Hyundai Genesis, Mazda MX-5, Nissan Altima and Porsche Boxster and Cayman. The engines are tuned to produce between 170 and 240 horsepower and are capable of speeds in excess of 135 mph.
Comical. I think other than the MX5, I think most ST cars are making OVER 240hp at the tires and go ~150mph at daytona.

 

[thePill]

That's an erroneous "FAN GUIDE". It does not say anything about specific power numbers in the rulebook.

Fan guide:

Grand Sport (GS) - As with all Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge cars, GS class cars start out as stock, production model cars that race with minor modifications only. The GS class contains the top performing cars and include the Aston Martin Vantage, BMW M3, Chevy Camaro GS.R, Ford Mustang Boss 302 R, Nissan 370Z, Porsche 911 and Subaru WRX-STI. The engines are tuned to produce between 350 and 405 horsepower and are cabable of speeds in excess of 160 mph.
Not correct at all. M3's make 414hp from the factory; Boss' 444hp, Porsche GTS 408hp. GS cars are also doing ~180mph at daytona

Street Tuner (ST) - The ST class is also production based with much of the car using the same stock parts you would find on your passenger car. This class is limited to four- and six-cylinder and rotary engines. The ST class includes the Audi S3, BMW 128 and 325, Honda Civic Si, Hyundai Genesis, Mazda MX-5, Nissan Altima and Porsche Boxster and Cayman. The engines are tuned to produce between 170 and 240 horsepower and are capable of speeds in excess of 135 mph.
Comical. I think other than the MX5, I think most ST cars are making OVER 240hp at the tires and go ~150mph at daytona.

That "Fan Guide" is a guide provided by IMSA to its fans describing the class. It's right on the IMSA website AND, it was on the Grand Am site before that. Nothing has changed in that class except the Z/28.R.

See...

http://www.imsa.com/imsa101/classes-0


Unless your LYING to me!!!

 

[thePill]

It's an old out of date fan guide that has been passed along year after year and is inaccurate by todays standards. I explained it above in red. This is not a "RULE"; which you keep calling it; it's a "guide" to describe the cars to the fans.

So if I showed you the rulebook stating the same thing?

2015 CLASSES
The IMSA Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge features some of the best racing in North America with sports cars from worldwide manufacturers, straight from the showroom floor, raced side-by-side with only minor modifications. The Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge has two different classes:
GRAND SPORT (GS)
› Engines tuned to produce between 350 and 405 horsepower.
› Speeds in excess of 160 mph.
› Competition equalized by a variety of fuel-tank capacities.
› GS class includes Aston Martin Vantage, BMW M3, Chevy Camaro, Ford Mustang GT, Nissan 370Z and Porsche 911.
STREET TUNER (ST)
› Engines tuned to produce between 170 and 240 horsepower.
› Top speed around 135 mph.
› Minimum weights ranging from 2,200 to 3,125 pounds.
› Only major modifications allowed in ST are in the area of safety.
› ST class includes Audi S3, BMW 128i and 328i, Honda Civic Si, Hyundai Genesis, Mazda MX-5, Nissan Altima and Porsche Boxster & Cayman.
› Limited to four- and six-cylinder engines and rotaries onl

Same thing this year...

 

[Sabre]

I have no clue who ThePill is, never met him nor will I. Your comment is funny. This so called "drama" he creates, it sucks all you folks in, time and time again. And again and again and again.

Kind of funny, huh? He gets banned from other sites for his hate of GM/Camaro, comes here and starts his topics, debates, etc and a handful of folks follow him here to continue. You all are the ones losing sleep over this stuff, not him.

Not losing any sleep....just irritating...like a fly or mosquito that buzzes your head, but stays just out of swatting range.

 

[thePill]

Here's the Blackdog SCCA PWC z28's stats. It makes 425rwhp with an amazing 43mm restriction. Holy sh!t!!! No wonder it's not doing well there.

http://www.world-challenge.com/search/pirelli-world-challenge-cars/chevrolet-camaro-z28.html


SCCA also allows a 305 front tire now! Wooooo Hoooo!!! The GT350 won't need to change. Now a 305 on a GT350R makes sense. I was wondering why all the illegal equipment. I guess it isn't illegal this year, hopefully for the Mustang too.

Base weight for the z28? Just under 3400lbs... Sure, a 500lbs weight reduction sounds nice.


These are neat, the PWC ZL1 and z28.

Nevermind... Quote this post and copy the links. Nice pictures.

 

[Stuntman]

Here's the Blackdog SCCA PWC z28's stats. It makes 425rwhp with an amazing 43mm restriction. Holy sh!t!!! No wonder it's not doing well there.

http://www.world-challenge.com/search/pirelli-world-challenge-cars/chevrolet-camaro-z28.html


SCCA also allows a 305 front tire now! Wooooo Hoooo!!! The GT350 won't need to change. Now a 305 on a GT350R makes sense. I was wondering why all the illegal equipment. I guess it isn't illegal this year, hopefully for the Mustang too.

Base weight for the z28? Just under 3400lbs... Sure, a 500lbs weight reduction sounds nice.

You crack me up. You believe anything you see on the internet (horsepower wise) when rules and restrictor sizes constantly change. Do you really think that "425hp" is "whp" and is accurate and updated everytime a new restrictor size is given? Come on man, use common sense...

It's also hilarious how you lobbied against a big tire because "SCCA rules are unchangeable" when I constantly told you that sanctioning bodies do not have more power than OEM's (which you believe is false) and will adapt to things like CCB, 19" wheels, Magnaride, etc... :lol:

 

[Sabre]

So if I showed you the rulebook stating the same thing?



Same thing this year...

Again...as Stuntman said...this is a generalized series description for fans, taken from the CTSCC info page....NOT the rulebook!

 

[thePill]

You crack me up. You believe anything you see on the internet (horsepower wise) when rules and restrictor sizes constantly change. Do you really think that "425hp" is "whp" and is accurate and updated everytime a new restrictor size is given? Come on man, use common sense...

It's also hilarious how you lobbied against a big tire because "SCCA rules are unchangeable" when I constantly told you that sanctioning bodies do not have more power than OEM's (which you believe is false) and will adapt to things like CCB, 19" wheels, Magnaride, etc... :lol:

I think your funny... The only info available to us is on the Internet. My only sources for IMSA and SCCA are what they provide here. If the PWC LS7 makes 425rwhp there w/ a 43mm, I'd think a 470rwhp GS z28 with an 80mm makes sense.

I predicted that a 65mm restriction may result in a 420-430rwhp output BUT, seeing the SCCA car, I doubt it is that low. Maybe 440-450 now at 3575lbs. It's a little more even now but I suspect there is still a large power advantage with an LS7. Imagine that, a 7 liter V8 has a power advantage.


I was against the whole z28 legality thing because it in fact was NOT legal. The SCCA has only changed the rules this season and, there is nothing wrong with that. Still, this is a 3rd Party creation, not a Chevy Racing effort.

The z28's didn't fit into any rulebooks when I raised awareness over a year ago. That was a major effort on my part and, NOBODY would have known the difference.

This is a huge victory for thePill, especially since this was a year battle for me.

 

[Stuntman]

The z28's didn't fit into any rulebooks when I raised awareness over a year ago. That was a major effort on my part and, NOBODY would have known the difference.

This is a huge victory for thePill, especially since this was a year battle for me.

Neither does a Cayman, 911, Turbo, GT3, 458, Speciale, 12C, etc... It does not matter and no one cares. People who race will buy the 'spec' calipers/rotors/suspension to go racing. No one else cares, quit bringing it up.

 

[thePill]

Again...as Stuntman said...this is a generalized series description for fans, taken from the CTSCC info page....NOT the rulebook!

I think you guys are reaching... If GTS is 300-400 I have no issues believing IMSA at 350-405.

Besides, the Camaro was already confirmed (by both bodies) to produce 470@80mm and 425@43mm.

Both are well above both class maximums.

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