GT350 vs. Z/28

[Erik427]

Wonder if this is across the board or for the base model?

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[Erik427]

The Corvette lost 99lbs too...

...but ended up heavier in the end.

The structure has to have lost some weight. I speculated a few post ago about 150 in the shell and another 50 in the panels.

However, they need to gain ZERO content weight now. That is the difficult part.




No, I can't tell the future. I select my "random" topics based on future (or potentially future) press releases. I have some pretty decent sources now it seems.

The challenge now is saving that 200lbs from being absorb by content. We can expect that 210lbs of C7 content to weasel it's way into the Camaro. It will be a struggle to beat it. I also see the suspension was included and used to offset some weight. Brakes, wheels, tires, drivetrain, interior and safety still not accounted for.

Edit: Nor is any NVH material figured in yet... Thanks guys...

I do the exact same thing over at the "Yellow Bullet" and nobody ever believes me. Chevy camp can be very annoying some times.

 

[thePill]

Wonder if this is across the board or for the base model?

I know the article says "curb weight" but the Camaro isn't even close to that point yet. Hell, even the ATS-V hasn't had weights finalized yet. They have a good idea but after the tooling was finalized.

At this point, they have an idea but none of the other areas have been figured in. If they can limit content then they could make a sub-3800lbs Camaro. However, it won't be worth a performance sh!t unless it has a Z51 type package added.

The 6th Gen platform is 2.2 inches shorter (great) and so far 200lbs lighter (better) than the 5th.

It will be a challenge to beat the S550.

W still don't know if the convertible or HALO reinforcement has been added yet. The reason the ATS is so light is its lack of a Vert/wagon and coupe until recently.

Edit: The composite suspension components are limited to the Base Camaro's and low output models. The others will use either the Aluminum from the ATS or Steel from the CTS.

What they discussed today is concerning the structure, support panels (including glass), prototype interior, the 3.6, the transmission, the front and rear suspension and working exhaust. Few of these areas have been finalized. Weight gain on a Camaro with carry over equipment will be minimal and best case. I expect a 3.6 6th Gen to weigh very close to what a 2015 V6 Mustang weighs.

The LT1 equipped Camaro will see less of that "200lbs". I can't really say how much because I can't speculate if the cheap composite suspension will make it over. Only 10lbs or so was saved I hear.

If they are using the 5th Gen as the basis for weight comparison, the LT1/TR6070 is 70 to 80lbs heavier than an LS3/TR6060. The ATS comes with 255/275's which is far larger than the previous 245/265. Wheels are probably heavier, brakes are probably ATS-V sized and...heavier than the 2015 SS's. Granted, 70-80lbs for engine/trans, 20lbs for wheels/tires, maybe 10-15lbs in rotor alone. Sways and suspension support will gain, likely having the heft and weight of 1LE/z28 components... maybe 10lbs total. The C7 gained almost 40lbs in standard interior equipment... The Mustang gained 20-30lbs in airbag too which I don't think is included in this initial projection.

For good measure, here was the C7's situation and how it panned out. Notice the initial weight loss is all structure, panels and suspension. Team Camaro should have a working platform (suspension, structure and panels (including glass) and should have said structure in on the rigidity table. This would be the first structure test. I assume that needs to b finalized before any of the other stuff goes in. That obviously released some percentages of increase so, that is confirmed.

While I hear one thing, this info makes me think that the 200lbs is indeed just the structure and suspension right now. That is all they have finalized since they are releasing torsional improvements.


This is the C7's weight loss/gain list from Chevy. I will underline the things the LT1 Camaro has incoming.

Areas Of Mass Reduction

Frame: 99 pounds lighter
Body panels: 37 pounds lighter
Hatch: several pounds lighter
Control arms: now hollow, several pounds
Total weight savings is in the vicinity of 150 pounds, or 68 kg.

Areas of Mass Addition

35.2 pounds — direct injection, VVT, AFM
6.6 pounds — standard engine oil cooler
13.2 pounds — dual mass clutch
15.4 pounds — steel torque tube part of AFM
5.5 pounds — AFM exhaust valves
11 pounds — 7th transmission speed
18.5 pounds — strengthened differential, half shafts
18.3 pounds — larger fixed brakes
17 pounds — new interior appointments and safety features
17.2 pounds — upgraded seats
18.5 pounds — structural safety requirements
31.5 pounds — new infotainment and cabin technology, as well as relocating battery to the rear
3 pounds — bigger fuel tank
That’s a total weight gain of 210 pounds, or 95 kg.

Opting for the Z51 performance package would add transmission and differential coolers, a rear sway bar, larger wheels, electronic differential, and a spoiler. Although unconfirmed, these changes will most likely result in the addition of 150-200 pounds.

Some things not talked about is wheels/tires/exhaust and, some of those weights could be more when a larger vehicle is concerned. It will be a good fight to beat the 2010's 3820-3860lbs. I'm not sure how much of that is on the base model too.

But then again, does this thing come with 18 inch all seasons with a 12.9 inch front rotor? Is it shelled out? Will a Z51 package Camaro make it 100lbs more and the only comparable option? It won't be any different than the GTPP in those terms.

 

[thePill]

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...gt350-ford-mustang-will-make-at-least-520-hp/

RT picked up this news. They added this bit:

Ford has not revealed the model year "for a reason." And that reason is, per a source we trust, that a limited number of early cars will probably be sold as 2015 models.

Hopefully those anniversary editions will absorb some of the early markup ??

So I am a source they trust?

Don't trust the media if it's guys like me feeding them the bullshit...

Just kidding guys. I am desperately trying to get back into the good graces of Car and Driver... I will sleep with Road and Track to do that...

I might be insane, but apparently I'm okay to have over for dinner.



...and on that note, I hope my past rants are holding a little water now. I am sorry I can't cite sources...EVER... It's just one of those things :( I need to try and fill these post with a comedic-sense of inter-tainment while talking about seemingly insane topics months in advanced. I am not trying to protect a company but employes that may work close to or for them.

The 200lbs weight loss thing on the Alpha was told to me weeks ago. I imagine before the torsional test were done, the car was scaled and stuff was mentioned to me or someone I know. Out of respect for my spies, I waited until I was given the GO a few days before the press release. That way no one has the slightest idea since the finished releases has been seen by so many.

That is just the way I operate and I always will. None of my spies have ever been fired, some were fired because they decided to cut me out and do it themselves OR, trusted another moron with this info. Or sold a part to a Chevy rep on Ebay like a toolbox...

The issue now is LT1 trim weight gain. The base model looks to be doing well and competitive with the Mustang V6 in terms of weight. The cost will probably kill them from what I am hearing...


Back to the GT350.

The Power to Weight projection may have been based on a certain output and curb weight projection. It may have even been projected using 500hp since that much was for certain before sending it off. It ended up being over 520HP.

This could work for weight too. They may have wanted a 3500lbs GT350R but ended up with a 3600lbs car. Or vice versa I guess....

 

[Erik427]

Pill, what is the power to weight ratio that is projected for the GT350? A good guess will do.

 

[thePill]

Pill, what is the power to weight ratio that is projected for the GT350? A good guess will do.

It was said to be approximately the same as the 911 GT3 (6.63). I am pretty sure that, if true, was based on initial HP and Curb projections. Like we are finding out with the GT350, as well as the ATS-V, most projections are conservative at first.

That said, weight could have also increased without warning too. They did say "Over 130lbs" was saved so they could have been finding more at the time of that statement.

The Power to Weight ratio info was slipped to Auto Evolution by Dave P.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/f...is-better-than-the-porsche-911-gt3-91165.html

Still, the Mustang Shelby GT350R and the 911 GT3 are much, much closer to each other than it might seem.

Here's the objective stuff:

Ford hasn't released the final weight and muscle figures, but both cars have approximately the same power to weight ratio.

This info was released too early. At just 500+, we couldn't accept a 3350lbs GT350 on a 130lbs weight loss confirmation which would be 6.7 PtW. However, if Ford had a good idea that the 5.2 was 520+, it would make the GT350R settle in the 3500-3600lbs range with more power. It is possible as I say that this PtW was based on an early projection of say 3570lbs @ 535HP. Or 3600 @ 540HP... 3650 @550HP... any would be 911 GT3 competitive in PtW.

 

[Erik427]

It was said to be approximately the same as the 911 GT3 (6.63). I am pretty sure that, if true, was based on initial HP and Curb projections. Like we are finding out with the GT350, as well as the ATS-V, most projections are conservative at first.

That said, weight could have also increased without warning too. They did say "Over 130lbs" was saved so they could have been finding more at the time of that statement.

The Power to Weight ratio info was slipped to Auto Evolution by Dave P.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/f...is-better-than-the-porsche-911-gt3-91165.html



This info was released too early. At just 500+, we couldn't accept a 3350lbs GT350 on a 130lbs weight loss confirmation which would be 6.7 PtW. However, if Ford had a good idea that the 5.2 was 520+, it would make the GT350R settle in the 3500-3600lbs range with more power. It is possible as I say that this PtW was based on an early projection of say 3570lbs @ 535HP. Or 3600 @ 540HP... 3650 @550HP... any would be 911 GT3 competitive in PtW.

Trying to nail down the hp/tq.....you know how it goes. I bet we give all the brands fits with the way we snoop around.

 

[02gtnh]

I know the article says "curb weight" but the Camaro isn't even close to that point yet. Hell, even the ATS-V hasn't had weights finalized yet. They have a good idea but after the tooling was finalized.

At this point, they have an idea but none of the other areas have been figured in. If they can limit content then they could make a sub-3800lbs Camaro. However, it won't be worth a performance sh!t unless it has a Z51 type package added.

The 6th Gen platform is 2.2 inches shorter (great) and so far 200lbs lighter (better) than the 5th.

It will be a challenge to beat the S550.

W still don't know if the convertible or HALO reinforcement has been added yet. The reason the ATS is so light is its lack of a Vert/wagon and coupe until recently.

Edit: The composite suspension components are limited to the Base Camaro's and low output models. The others will use either the Aluminum from the ATS or Steel from the CTS.

What they discussed today is concerning the structure, support panels (including glass), prototype interior, the 3.6, the transmission, the front and rear suspension and working exhaust. Few of these areas have been finalized. Weight gain on a Camaro with carry over equipment will be minimal and best case. I expect a 3.6 6th Gen to weigh very close to what a 2015 V6 Mustang weighs.

The LT1 equipped Camaro will see less of that "200lbs". I can't really say how much because I can't speculate if the cheap composite suspension will make it over. Only 10lbs or so was saved I hear.

If they are using the 5th Gen as the basis for weight comparison, the LT1/TR6070 is 70 to 80lbs heavier than an LS3/TR6060. The ATS comes with 255/275's which is far larger than the previous 245/265. Wheels are probably heavier, brakes are probably ATS-V sized and...heavier than the 2015 SS's. Granted, 70-80lbs for engine/trans, 20lbs for wheels/tires, maybe 10-15lbs in rotor alone. Sways and suspension support will gain, likely having the heft and weight of 1LE/z28 components... maybe 10lbs total. The C7 gained almost 40lbs in standard interior equipment... The Mustang gained 20-30lbs in airbag too which I don't think is included in this initial projection.

For good measure, here was the C7's situation and how it panned out. Notice the initial weight loss is all structure, panels and suspension. Team Camaro should have a working platform (suspension, structure and panels (including glass) and should have said structure in on the rigidity table. This would be the first structure test. I assume that needs to b finalized before any of the other stuff goes in. That obviously released some percentages of increase so, that is confirmed.

While I hear one thing, this info makes me think that the 200lbs is indeed just the structure and suspension right now. That is all they have finalized since they are releasing torsional improvements.


This is the C7's weight loss/gain list from Chevy. I will underline the things the LT1 Camaro has incoming.



Some things not talked about is wheels/tires/exhaust and, some of those weights could be more when a larger vehicle is concerned. It will be a good fight to beat the 2010's 3820-3860lbs. I'm not sure how much of that is on the base model too.

But then again, does this thing come with 18 inch all seasons with a 12.9 inch front rotor? Is it shelled out? Will a Z51 package Camaro make it 100lbs more and the only comparable option? It won't be any different than the GTPP in those terms.

The big difference between the C7 and the gen6 Camaro, is they never said the C7 curb weight would be less. They are specificly saying curb for the gen6, so they are putting themselves out there for bashing if this doesn't happen. The only issue would be, is it just the base, or will it be all models. My guess based off what I read, it will be the LT1 model as that is what they kept referring to.

 

[thePill]

The big difference between the C7 and the gen6 Camaro, is they never said the C7 curb weight would be less. They are specificly saying curb for the gen6, so they are putting themselves out there for bashing if this doesn't happen. The only issue would be, is it just the base, or will it be all models. My guess based off what I read, it will be the LT1 model as that is what they kept referring to.

Chevy loves to do this to you people. Back when the C7 was at this very stage, Chevy let go the 99lbs weight reduction report.

http://www.corvette7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280414

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/3198780-only-99lbs-lighter.html

The C7 is one of 13 new Chevrolet products that will hit U.S. show rooms this year. Like many of the others, it arrives lighter than past models. Engineers said Sunday they had trimmed 90 pounds from the car, and used carbon fiber on even the base trim level.

This was in Jan/Feb 2013. It was a 90-100lbs weight reduction and that was from Chevy themselves.

Come April/May 2013, the Corvette had gained 190lbs on top of that 99lbs weight loss.

Two things, this will likely be the same case again AND, they are netting a loss from Base to Base... regardless of standard drivetrain changes.


...and trust me, I will bash them for it...

 

[CarFan]

That's just not true, Pill. GM themselves stated that 99 pounds was taken out of the frame. What the people and media spread is off the table.

Here they clearly state 200 pounds off curb weight for Camaro. If they don't deliver, they will let down a lot of people. I would be very disappointed in GM being misled by them and many people would as well. I can see the Camaro being weight competitive with Mustang across the board. I know you don't believe it, but GM has the money to throw into making this a great car.

Few things to consider with your predictions. Corvette was not overweight in the previous gen. Camaro is overweight. Much easier for Camaro to lose weight just judging by that.

Mustang barely added weight and it added much more than Camaro needs to. Camaro had more air bags, Camaro had IRS, bigger wheels, bigger tires, etc. It was built on a full size platform. ATS platform has all the safety equipment that the Camaro would need.

A weight loss is imminent. Will it be 400 pounds? Hell no. 200 pounds however is definitely doable. Even 150 from their current curb weight would be very solid. We don't know the exact weight figures for the ATS-V, but it's said to be around 3,700. It could be over or under. The LT1 is no heavier than the LF4 engine in the V.

 

[flaps]

Chevy loves to do this to you people. Back when the C7 was at this very stage, Chevy let go the 99lbs weight reduction report.

http://www.corvette7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280414

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/3198780-only-99lbs-lighter.html



This was in Jan/Feb 2013. It was a 90-100lbs weight reduction and that was from Chevy themselves.

Come April/May 2013, the Corvette had gained 190lbs on top of that 99lbs weight loss.

Two things, this will likely be the same case again AND, they are netting a loss from Base to Base... regardless of standard drivetrain changes.


...and trust me, I will bash them for it...

Everyone in those threads is pointing out how the 99 lbs lost if from the frame only. This press release for the Camaro specifically says "more than 200 lbs" was lost from the curb weight.

 

[DivineStrike]

I'm honestly excited for the camaro...I don't see any reason for it to make me want one, but it does make me a little more disappointed in Ford though for the weight gain. Cars in general just need to shed weight.

If it does weigh in near the mustang or better, I hope Ford will try to respond with some weight reduction. Not too concerned with power if they can knock down the weight

 

[thePill]

...and the ATS-V's initial "600lbs lighter than the CTS-V" was just a typo.

I'm not saying a 3520lbs base car isn't impossible, it will just be hard since the ATS Coupe 3.6 manual weighs 3530lbs now. They are testing slightly heavier too. It will be very difficult to undercut the ATS.

That said, same scenario, the ATS-V weighs "about 3700lbs". I have serious doubts a Camaro LT1 will undercut that either.

I would add in 20-40lbs on the ATS Coupe 2.0T curb (3479lbs), 30-50 into the V6 ATS Coupe (3530) and maybe 50-70lbs onto the ATS-V's curb when official. The Camaro is a larger car than the ATS Coupe and I'd expect it to be heavier rolling chassis vs. rolling chassis.

If they only took on 20-40lbs to support a convertible, I'd be surprised.

I'm sorry, a 200lbs weight loss across the board on 3 models w/ two transmissions is hard to do. You almost can't make a blanket statement like that.

It is possible the car is exactly the same as the ATS structurally and geometrically, it could weigh 3700lbs. Even exact same equipment...

But I don't think this will be. The ATS and ATS-V have shitty wheelbase to track ratios. The Camaro cannot adopt that or it will be a looooong generation.

 

[CarFan]

I'm honestly excited for the camaro...I don't see any reason for it to make me want one, but it does make me a little more disappointed in Ford though for the weight gain. Cars in general just need to shed weight.

If it does weigh in near the mustang or better, I hope Ford will try to respond with some weight reduction. Not too concerned with power if they can knock down the weight

I think they'll weigh pretty much the same.

 

[CarFan]

...and the ATS-V's initial "600lbs lighter than the CTS-V" was just a typo.

I'm not saying a 3520lbs base car isn't impossible, it will just be hard since the ATS Coupe 3.6 manual weighs 3530lbs now. They are testing slightly heavier too. It will be very difficult to undercut the ATS.

That said, same scenario, the ATS-V weighs "about 3700lbs". I have serious doubts a Camaro LT1 will undercut that either.

I would add in 20-40lbs on the ATS Coupe 2.0T curb (3479lbs), 30-50 into the V6 ATS Coupe (3530) and maybe 50-70lbs onto the ATS-V's curb when official. The Camaro is a larger car than the ATS Coupe and I'd expect it to be heavier rolling chassis vs. rolling chassis.

If they only took on 20-40lbs to support a convertible, I'd be surprised.

I'm sorry, a 200lbs weight loss across the board on 3 models w/ two transmissions is hard to do. You almost can't make a blanket statement like that.

It is possible the car is exactly the same as the ATS structurally and geometrically, it could weigh 3700lbs. Even exact same equipment...

But I don't think this will be. The ATS and ATS-V have shitty wheelbase to track ratios. The Camaro cannot adopt that or it will be a looooong generation.

You're not as well informed on GM products as you think you are and you are throwing out false information.

First off, there is no such thing as an ATS 3.6 with a manual. Mustang is testing heavier too. You know why? Because they are optioned out cars.

Second off, an ATS 2.0 curb weight is not 3,479. I honestly have no idea where you are getting your numbers. Its curb weight is 3,411. 3.6 coupe has additional equipment over the 2.0 in the respective trim and its curb weight is 3,530.

Show me the link of GM stating it'll be 600 pounds lighter. I recall seeing something along those lines, but not sure where. You do know that the CTS-V coupe is a 42,xxx pound car, right? Fairly close to a 600 pound difference if you ask me as we don't even know the weight of the ATS-V yet. Could be 3,650 or could be 3,750. Could also be 3,700. We'll find out.

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