GT350 vs. Z/28

[02gtnh]

Also, other then the 12 speakers, what other option is there in the premium that adds a lot of weight?

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[thePill]

Which coolers?

What ever happened to that 3,500lb GT?

Oil cooler and larger radiator is a good 20lbs.

Where is the 3500lbs GT? See GT350...

 

[02gtnh]

Based off what I have read, can't see this happening. My guess, the GT350R will be around 3650-3660, the GT350 will be around 3700lbs, and the GT350 with track pack will be around 3780-3790lbs. I know you won't agree, but that is what I'm reading into it from what Ford has said at the shows.
If I'm wrong, I have no problem admitting it and won't try making excuses.

 

[thePill]

I think pretty much every car on the road has an oil cooler these days. Where is the additional oil cooler?:

http://m.ford.com/cars/mustang/2015/featuredetails/?fcid=0&fid=4

Didn't you say a base GT weighed 3500lbs a while ago?

I made a judgement on photos of the structure alone. The structure is smaller. Even though the BIW gained 2.2lbs, the support panels size has brought the weight down considerably. In other words, the S550 can be a 3500lbs vehicle much easier than an S197.

The sheer addition of standard equipment, safety equipment and new required equipment was hard to predict. The very "Insider" that claimed the S550's weight gain was in the structure was ultimately wrong, it is component weight... much of that will be absent from the GT350.

The 6th Gen will fall victim to this as well, just doubling up on airbags will a big weight gain... which I guess is a requirement all of the sudden.

But yes, it looks like the GT350R will be in the 35xx range... maybe less if the Power to Weight rumors are true. There really isn't much of a shot for a 5th Gen Camaro at all now...

Based off what I have read, can't see this happening. My guess, the GT350R will be around 3650-3660, the GT350 will be around 3700lbs, and the GT350 with track pack will be around 3780-3790lbs. I know you won't agree, but that is what I'm reading into it from what Ford has said at the shows.
If I'm wrong, I have no problem admitting it and won't try making excuses.

I guess it is possible. I had heard the GT350TP was lighter than the GT but not by much. The GT350R was over 130lbs lighter than that. You won't get lightweight anything from a GT until a competition GT is approved.

Here is the issue thought, the GT350R has the same exact Power to Weight Ratio as a Porsche 911 GT3 which is 6.63. That would mean the 5.2 would need well over 540hp (maybe more). I think that is impossible and a 3500lbs Mustang is far more feasible than a 550hp NA V8.

 

[thePill]

Rumor now suggest exactly 520hp. If the Power to Weight Ratio is suppose to be approximately the same as the 911 GT3 at 6.63.

That would mean the GT350R is as low as 3450lbs.

I am anxious to see if any of this is true...

 

[Trackaholic]

Rumor now suggest exactly 520hp. If the Power to Weight Ratio is suppose to be approximately the same as the 911 GT3 at 6.63.

That would mean the GT350R is as low as 3450lbs.

I am anxious to see if any of this is true...

3450 for the R and 3600 for the GT350 would be pretty awesome. Seems like too much weight reduction, but I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

-T

 

[68fbjjz109]

It is possible, Bama's car is pretty light. However they removed quite a bit. This being said. They aren't using Aluminum bumpers, CFRP radiator support with integrated aero and cooling ducting, lighter drive train components, and likely select use of NVH countermeasures.

 

[thePill]

Closer and closer we get, the closer we draw near the more a 5th Gen z28 becomes irrelevant. I'm afraid no matter what the damage is, the argument will be voided to save their feelings. The 5th Gen wasn't very good outside of being a volume selling car. In my honest opinion, "volume" is somewhat misused once 70-80,000 cars is all that is sold. For the America's I guess that is making it... but the budget... On a new platform, R&D can be as high a $6 Billion dollars.

All these rumors about output, weight and ratio's sound attractive. If it wasn't for the Power to Weight Ratio comparison with the 911 GT3, we would be completely blind. I'm not even sure that was meant for public consumption. But no matter... It is a good number...

We were one of the first members here to have access to a stripped down S550. If it was 100% my project and mine alone, I would be more open about my initial findings. Cage construction is a private thing, especially on a new platform. I will say this though, the Mustang fits cage very nicely.

My point being (without discussing too much), some of this OEM equipment weight is just incredibly overwhelming. I don't think it was purposely weighted down, I just think that in order to undercut the 5th Gen with a new product, weight wasn't a concern initially. Reason being, the sponsor had 4 wheel/tire combos all ready for scales. With the use of class approved rotors, calipers ect, ect... they saved 31lbs out of EACH front wheel/tire/rotor ONLY. That weight savings simply was not there in 2014... I believe there was more weight to be found in rotor selection. Once 18's are decided on and this weight comes off, you won't need 15 inch rotors. You can save some decent cash going down to 18 inch wheels and 13-14 inch rotors.

They pulled over 100lbs of rotating mass out of the car AND, a good portion of that was unsprung... That is just incredible... The cost involved isn't insane either.

(Caution)

I need to touch on this as a warning (without too many details). These new Mustangs are pretty tight as far as having the suspension tied down. It works very, very well, as is, from the factory. Not all of your changes such as wheels, tires and suspension do the car good. Just swapping out to new wheel/tires without any calculating will actually slow you down. Think twice before you start swapping out tires and wheels or lowering the car without any time behind the wheel. I always thought the S197's were pretty dialed in but now, these S550's made them feel a bit slushy. Anyway, not a huge deal if your not tracking/racing but, these quick changes usually do more harm than good... Unless you got the know how to figure out your geometry and make successful changes to the existing layout.

Back on topic, there is quite a bit of extra weight just laying around on the GT and GTPP. Some 90lbs in sound deadening I heard, I don't think any of the guys actually weighed the pieces. About the same weight in airbags (good for competition)... The S550 is just a better car than the S197. The GT is faster than the Boss 302 is without the Performance Package... It is a pretty decent leap forward...


I'm not sure where this leaves the GT350. If the GT350 and GT3 have a competitive Power to Weight ratio, I think I would want a 3450lbs car in this situation. A head to head with the GT3 would be a better comparison if we could get the weight down closer to 3400lbs. I could handle not making 100HP per Liter with 520 and settle for 510. In this fight, you need a lighter car to be a better car. The GT3 is not a Hot Wheels wanna be.

The z28 could be just straight up out-everything'd. If the PtW rumors are true, the z28 is nothing with a 7.6 PtW. A better comparison would perhaps be the GT350TP because there is fair, then there is the GT350R vs. z28. I think it would be more appropriate. The MSRP difference would probably turn some heads and roll some eyes however, I would be basing the comparison solely on power to weight for fairness. Many question Chevy about why they never got a Corvette Z51 Nurburgring time from the Corvette. Well, the Z51 kicked the z28's ass most of the 10 days they ran together. The Covette had a few advantages the z28 was left lacking of... One of those advantages was the power to weight of the Z51. The Z51 Package added a boatload of features and equipment... and weight. A good weight though...

The Z51 Package adds about 150lbs to the curb weight of the Corvette. The Z51 Package kinda mirrors the GT's Performance Package with a few exceptions, one being a Dry Sump (which the Mustang needs eventually). I figured the current Performance Package weighs about 80-90lbs from what I can see, the previous Performance Pack weighed 60-70lbs. I would plan on this Z51 Performance Package to be optional on the 2017 Camaro, it would be the only competitive version of the Camaro. That is some pretty serious weight by the way... I will laugh if they exclude the Dry Sump on the Camaro option list.

With 500 horsepower at 3705lbs, that gives it a 7.4 PtW. That is C7 Z51 competitive right there and pretty much pushes the z28 out of the picture. Sure, anything can happen and I am sure anything will. I think we will begin to see the extent of these editors driving skills coming up here shortly. I don't think magazines will show the whole picture... Besides, Im not overly eager to watch the winner buy Ad space which is basically all it comes down to. 3700lbs isn't going to cut it when it comes to the GT3. The Mustang needs to complete laps damn it!!! One after another, 5 laps, 10, 20... 24 hours.... over and over. No more selling a car on a single lap. The Z06's name has literally been defiled with the supercharger application, extreme weight gain and the inability to complete consecutive laps. Eww and Boo....

We can't really dismiss the z28 though, the media went through a lot of trouble settin' the piggy up to be knocked down. Mention of the PtW ratio being that low set me off, I got excited... just some quick math already has the car down there. The z28 needs to lose and, it will lose.

I have started comparing the S550 to the 6th Gen. The S550 seems small compared to the 6th Gen Camaro. I know the roof on the Mustang makes the Camaro's look like the kitchen table. The 6th Gen just looks a lot bigger than the sporty Mustang... more muscle for sure.

They are saying an LT1 Camaro will weigh 3695lbs. Based on the images above comparing a 3705lbs Mustang, the Camaro has far more mass.

This is doing it for me....

 

[thePill]

Here's a GT puttin' in some work. Can you see how streamlined the S550 is? Very nice, very athletic and looks to be at home on the track. Aerodynamic, very streamlined, always appears in motion and in motion with force or at speed.

The z28 presents itself as a glorified street squeegee. This is a Nurburgring z28 prototype... I like this picture because it actually shows you the cage they used, which looks like an X brace inside the loop. No... that wouldn't add rigidity to the structure at all... It is a very, very large car...

Man... they softened the sh!t outta it...

 

[DivineStrike]

Thepill,

Can You please post up a weight of a base GT with a full tank of gas and NO WEIGHT REDUCTION.

I would really like to see a stop to all your wild guessing. Show us facts, not assumptions. Most of your projections on weight are strictly assumptions.

Also, let's stop this EPA 33% rule nonsense. It only applies to EPA testing, manufacturer curb weight in the US is base model weight of whatever engine and transmission with a full tank of gas

 

[All-Or-Nothing]

Why doesn't someone with a base GT go weigh the car at a Farmers market or something. Crazy how this weight thing is just going round and round with no definitave answer.

 

[thePill]

Yes, just weigh a Base GT. There will likely be a 20-30lbs weight spread. I'm betting you could find a Base GT that weighs 3705lbs... You could probably find a lighter one too.

When weight guessing the GT350, Fords official 3705lbs should be used. Just as long as people are well aware of the excess the GT is littered with. That way the GT350's weight loss is honest and not just pure decontenting or weight savings discovered that wasn't accounted for.

If GTPP's are weighing between 3720-3750lbs, it is safe to assume Base GT's are a little lighter. Just changing the wheels/tires out gets you what Ford claims.

Chances are the GT350's weight savings is mostly rotational mass and unsprung weight. It will be a night and day difference... To be honest, the S550 GT and S197 GTPP's race weight isn't too far off with slightly better balance FR/RR and better balance left/right.

 

[02gtnh]

Yes, just weigh a Base GT. There will likely be a 20-30lbs weight spread. I'm betting you could find a Base GT that weighs 3705lbs... You could probably find a lighter one too.

When weight guessing the GT350, Fords official 3705lbs should be used. Just as long as people are well aware of the excess the GT is littered with. That way the GT350's weight loss is honest and not just pure decontenting or weight savings discovered that wasn't accounted for.

If GTPP's are weighing between 3720-3750lbs, it is safe to assume Base GT's are a little lighter. Just changing the wheels/tires out gets you what Ford claims.

Chances are the GT350's weight savings is mostly rotational mass and unsprung weight. It will be a night and day difference... To be honest, the S550 GT and S197 GTPP's race weight isn't too far off with slightly better balance FR/RR and better balance left/right.

The only way your going to get a 20-30lb difference between two GT is if one isn't full of fluids. There's no way one car is coming off the assembly line weighing that much less then another similar model. Plus there has never been a gtpp that weighed 3720lbs, and the other near 3750 we don't know the whole story behind it. Many here that come with a lower number are just going off fuel guage readings and we all know ho accurate they are. Plus another said he took the junk out of the trunk, and we all know that is 13lbs.

 

[FATTBoss]

thePill, you keep harping on the use of a cage or partial cage in these prototypes. Stop. Having been around engineering mules I can tell you that they all use a protective cage of some sort in the test vehicles for liability issues. I am sure that they add some rigidity to the chassis, but I am also sure that they account for that in the design of the car, and while it certainly helps when setting track times, it isn't a magic elixir that shaves as much time as you appear to believe, or want us to believe.

 

[Gudz2015]

If ThePill sees anything about a GT 350 using a cage he will just say its normal process and drops it right away. Lol

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