GT350 vs. Z/28

[Trackaholic]

Just found this over at C5. What do you guys think? http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...o_the_tires_make_the_car/braking_skidpad.html

Was a bit of a let down IMO. I expected more data, or impressions, or something.

What did we learn from that?
1. R-compound tires are sticker and in general give better performance
2. Z/28 is more than a 1LE with race tires

What is funny to me is how sometimes they'll really highlight that a car has r-compound tires by saying something like "its performance was enhanced by its barely street-legal super-sticky tires". Then they'll have something like this that somewhat downplays the whole tire thing.

It was a fun read, but I was hoping for some road course lap times or something.

It would also be intersting to hear thoughts on how to normalize for different tires, especially because many of us who track our cars will use one set of tires for the street and a second set for the track. Because tires are so easy to swap, it is sometimes difficult to adhere to the whole "run what you brung" philosophy. There are occasions where I'd like to see how one car compares to another when they both are running the same tire compound. Might be cool to have a test like that, where they use the stock tires first, then swap to an R-compund that is availble is whatever sizes are necessary such that all cars can use the same tire type. Would be interesting to see how the cars react to the tire change.

One issue of course is that most cars are designed specifically to maximize the performance of the OEM tire, so changing tires can often have a much bigger effect than the pure "stickiness" would lead one to believe.

Anyhow, sorry for the rambling.

-T

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[thePill]

Just found this over at C5. What do you guys think about this motor trend article? "On the Chevrolet Camaro do the tires make the car?" "Camaro Z/28 and 1LE swap rubber to find out" http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...o_the_tires_make_the_car/braking_skidpad.html

That whole article was a collaboration between Chevy and Motor Trend, most magazine comparisons are collaborations. I believe the tires are responsible for 80-90% of the z28's performance. This "test" answers a question and most people don't understand tires in general. Just swapping out tires on an OEM vehicle may not benefit performance. The 1LE and z28 had the suspension tuned specifically for the exact tires it came with. It's a trick... anyone in the industry could tell you that.

Now, develop the 1LE's suspension and brakes to accommodate the new tires and bam!!! It's a different car. I'm afraid z28 buyers are just dumping loads of money into a package that mainly relies on tires to perform.

Look at it this way... When they tested the Goodyears on the z28, it showed there was an ever so slight decrease in performance. What that is trying to tell us is that the super sticky, world class tires are NOT really getting us much to begin with. Is that observation true?

I think not... Those Goodyears are garbage, the GT500 owners could tell you that. The improvement should be light years ahead of the GY's. These results are telling me that the Goodyears are almost as good as the Pirelli's. Does anyone here feel comfortable with that statement?

 

[Swoope]

Was a bit of a let down IMO. I expected more data, or impressions, or something.

What did we learn from that?
1. R-compound tires are sticker and in general give better performance
2. Z/28 is more than a 1LE with race tires

What is funny to me is how sometimes they'll really highlight that a car has r-compound tires by saying something like "its performance was enhanced by its barely street-legal super-sticky tires". Then they'll have something like this that somewhat downplays the whole tire thing.

It was a fun read, but I was hoping for some road course lap times or something.

It would also be intersting to hear thoughts on how to normalize for different tires, especially because many of us who track our cars will use one set of tires for the street and a second set for the track. Because tires are so easy to swap, it is sometimes difficult to adhere to the whole "run what you brung" philosophy. There are occasions where I'd like to see how one car compares to another when they both are running the same tire compound. Might be cool to have a test like that, where they use the stock tires first, then swap to an R-compund that is availble is whatever sizes are necessary such that all cars can use the same tire type. Would be interesting to see how the cars react to the tire change.

One issue of course is that most cars are designed specifically to maximize the performance of the OEM tire, so changing tires can often have a much bigger effect than the pure "stickiness" would lead one to believe.

Anyhow, sorry for the rambling.

-T

i totally agree, but i would like to see street cars all on the same extreme pref summer tire.. not r compounds. rivals/re-11/zs3/z11. pick one and use it on whatever you are testing in the most correct size..

beers

 

[thePill]

If Ford can make a 5.2l engine as competitive as the LS7, the LS7 should be bashed and bashed to no end. But that isn't going to happen. Not in NA form.

I'm still not sure why you say they're 'cheating' though. I'll grant you that the team is better at politics than any other. They pulled one over on IMSA and got a very favorable BOP for much of the season. I'll also agree it's absurd it was even considered for that class with the ci being so vastly different to begin with.

Unfair advantage, sure, but that's not their fault. I'd do the same thing if I were them. Perhaps you have other insider information though that would indicate they're cheating beyond taking advantage of IMSAs officials.

The LS7 is a great engine, in the top 10 as far as NA V8's go in my opinion. However, pushrod technology is riddled with parasitic losses. There are two ways to deal with the horsepower you lose from those loses. The primary way to handle this pushrod curse is usually to increase displacement to make more power overall.

The 2nd technique would be to develop an engine that is more efficient. they can achieve this by eliminate moving parts, lightweight components, better lubrication systems and so on... Any DOHC engine is poised to out do a pushrod engine. By eliminating the pushrods, the potential for a higher output increases. It's only really a matter of time...

As for cheating, it wasn't actually thePill that brought this up. It was a CTSCC driver that tried to give an explanation on why IMSA docked Chevy 26 Manufacturers points. The word is, the sealed LS7 crate engines output rating was falsified by Chevrolet. There has got to be a reason they were docked 26 manufactures points and, falsifying the LS7's output would be one of the many reason they would do that. It's a punishment and not a very good one... I can bet that the LS7 has been on Ringer status ever since Daytona. Like I said, they are literally destroying the class and factory racing here. In Stevenson's defense (and any other team using the z28), I doubt they had knowledge of the output although, I may question that eventually once I find out how and IF the teams test the output. If they do, I feel ALL the points accumulated should be removed as well as the vehicle itself.

The only inside info I have is the actual drivers themselves complaining about the issue or reporting what they find. I think the teams and drivers are a great place to get political feedback.

 

[thePill]

The z28's Laguna Seca lap was posted by Randy a few days ago. I must say, I had the z28 around a 1:36 at that track. Not impressed with a 1:38 from an $80,000 car. I'm afraid the '15 GTPP could be close to 1:39 flat for just under $40,000 AND, being Motorsport friendly... It's just a bum deal in my eyes. If it were around $50,000 I would be impressed.

The cars being tested now are actual production 2014 z28's. We wont see too many blow outs as we were previously meant to endure. The 5th Gen magically loses some of its steam from pre-production media cars to actual assembly line vehicles. At the same time, I still have to wonder if Chevy is still up to no good in one way or another.

 

[Fenderaddict2]

I'm a Mustang fan. And own a couple, well until a week ago when I let my '65 go but this thread is starting to become embarrassing. Face it the Z/28 is a great car and as hardcore as we wish Ford had gone with the Boss. But when you lead you have to be a bit more cautious. I hope the GT350 kills the Z/28 and I hope it does it at the Boss price point but I'm not so sure we'll get that lucky. But whatever the outcome it's time to wait for Ford to deliver rather than argue "what ifs" here. I just hope the damn thing loses weight as I really wish my Boss weighed less.

 

[thePill]

I'm a Mustang fan. And own a couple, well until a week ago when I let my '65 go but this thread is starting to become embarrassing. Face it the Z/28 is a great car and as hardcore as we wish Ford had gone with the Boss. But when you lead you have to be a bit more cautious. I hope the GT350 kills the Z/28 and I hope it does it at the Boss price point but I'm not so sure we'll get that lucky. But whatever the outcome it's time to wait for Ford to deliver rather than argue "what ifs" here. I just hope the damn thing loses weight as I really wish my Boss weighed less.

No, I do not wish they did more with the Boss 302, that's part of the issue here. I've said before, the Boss 302 was just a bit over-engineered. It eventually got the car slapped with major restriction in both Grand Am and SCCA PWC. The Boss had one major limitation, a rulebook. Ford also had to ensure the Boss 302 was real close to a Boss 302.R. The LS3 couldn't get it done, not even close. Now, they have a full advantage in both equipment and restriction... having very little in common with the OEM car. Does this make the z28 a bad car overall? No, I believe it is a fantastic drivers car, no doubt the best made in 2014. I have no issue with peoples opinion on the way it drives...

I have issues with everything else...

The z28.R had no limiting factors other than budget. Not only that, its permitted to use a basically unrestricted (at first) 7 liter engine while its competitors choke. It kills me Pratt uses AM Pratt/Miller components to replace the OEM equipment. The OEM car had just as much development freedom. They never needed to worry about getting this piggy to class anywhere, leaving the owner out in the stands. That is useless in many ways and, letting this car win a championship or even compete is bullshit.

They want what the Boss 302 had... The medias attention, 11 wins and a Championship in two classes its first year... It wanted some heritage. They media attention they get is forced or in CTSCC's case, bullshit. They can't beat the KIA in PWC, at least as far as I care to focus on GTS. The heritage of the z28 is iffy, at best. Its been whored out and diminished since 1969. I'm afraid the new one is just another perversion of marketing, using a parts bin of hipster performance must haves and charging you double, placing them on a full size sedan based coupe...


Ewww...

 

[traxiii]

As for cheating, it wasn't actually thePill that brought this up. It was a CTSCC driver that tried to give an explanation on why IMSA docked Chevy 26 Manufacturers points. The word is, the sealed LS7 crate engines output rating was falsified by Chevrolet. There has got to be a reason they were docked 26 manufactures points and, falsifying the LS7's output would be one of the many reason they would do that. It's a punishment and not a very good one... I can bet that the LS7 has been on Ringer status ever since Daytona. Like I said, they are literally destroying the class and factory racing here. In Stevenson's defense (and any other team using the z28), I doubt they had knowledge of the output although, I may question that eventually once I find out how and IF the teams test the output. If they do, I feel ALL the points accumulated should be removed as well as the vehicle itself.

The only inside info I have is the actual drivers themselves complaining about the issue or reporting what they find. I think the teams and drivers are a great place to get political feedback.

IMSA and the old Grand Am are/were horrible at getting out info on what's going on in their series'. The only way I find out about most of the changes in the BOP including engine and aero restrictions is the guys on the TV broadcast mentioning it. I don't tweet, so maybe the teams and drivers bring it up there, but if you go to the news section on their website there is nothing. They should be in press releases so we can keep track.

I remember when the Corvette prototype first came out a couple years ago, talk about unfair advantages, they were given all kinds of aero (dive planes, fender vents, etc.) and engine help after sand bagging and then proceeded to win almost everything. Although the Fords went 1-2 at Daytona after all the Chevys blew up. What ever happened to building cars to a class rule and letting them go for it? I know, too expensive, see F1.

 

[Sabre]

I recently had the chance to talk with one of the Mustang drivers in the paddock. The subject of the Camaros was brought up. He mentioned that he was afforded the chance to track a Z28 recently. His impression was that it was really impressive. He said it handled great, was agile and nimble and would probably make a good drift car. He also said the shock tuning was top notch and the downforce significant...one of it's best attributes. For the price, he thought it was a heck of deal compared to the Porsche GT3.

 

[FATTBoss]

I don't think anyone is denying the performance the street car delivers is impressive. The issue is letting the car into the Continental Series. The GM chassis gets the most breaks in the rulebook of any car in the series, and even after coming on strong at the end of last season with the 6.2L engine, they are allowed to run a 7.0L engine that has more rated HP in street trim than any of the competitors on the same class. On top of that they were then allowed a less restrictive intake setup than cars with less power in street trim that were already restricted for "balance of performance".

As to Ford topping the performance at Boss 302 prices, ain't very likely.

 

[Sabre]

I don't think anyone is denying the performance the street car delivers is impressive. The issue is letting the car into the Continental Series. The GM chassis gets the most breaks in the rulebook of any car in the series, and even after coming on strong at the end of last season with the 6.2L engine, they are allowed to run a 7.0L engine that has more rated HP in street trim than any of the competitors on the same class. On top of that they were then allowed a less restrictive intake setup than cars with less power in street trim that were already restricted for "balance of performance".

As to Ford topping the performance at Boss 302 prices, ain't very likely.

I wouldn't disagree with you one bit.

However, I've thought all along that this thread and all it's ire, should have been directed at IMSA and not at the Camaro. IMSA sets the rules and then dictates....they are the ones who decide who plays in the sandbox and what trim they can have. If anyone has a problem with the Camaro in it's current racing trim, then they really have a problem with IMSA and should direct their criticism in that direction.

IMSA/Grand Am has been mentioned in this thread, but the criticism has been overwhelmingly directed unfairly at the Camaro.

 

[souprmage]

I wouldn't disagree with you one bit.

However, I've thought all along that this thread and all it's ire, should have been directed at IMSA and not at the Camaro. IMSA sets the rules and then dictates....they are the ones who decide who plays in the sandbox and what trim they can have. If anyone has a problem with the Camaro in it's current racing trim, then they really have a problem with IMSA and should direct their criticism in that direction.

IMSA/Grand Am has been mentioned in this thread, but the criticism has been overwhelmingly directed unfairly at the Camaro.

+1

 

[traxiii]

IMSA/Grand Am has been mentioned in this thread, but the criticism has been overwhelmingly directed unfairly at the Camaro.

Could it be the behind the scenes manipulation and perceived capitulation of IMSA at the hands of Chevy when it comes to the z28, that thePill is mainly pissed off about?

 

[FATTBoss]

I think it is this:

Ford presented a car, the Boss 302, that conformed to the stipulated rules. Both the street car and the race car. The brakes were same size, tires of similar size, and all steel body. The car was approved, and allowed to run but given some restrictions on power output. Yes, the trans is different, and now the brakes are as well, but they are both offered in similar form on other Mustangs in the lineup.

Chevy presented a car that far exceeded what the rules allowed and said, "I wanna play too!". The car has carbon fiber this and that, great aero, well you know the rest.

But your are right, the anger should be directed at IMSA for allowing it in the first place. How they thought a car with better aero and a more powerful stock motor than the car that was doing pretty good at the end of last season would be fair to the rest of the field is beyond me!

 

[thePill]

The blame definitely lays on IMSA's shoulders, the SCCA needs a kick in the ass too. A Chevy championship has been in the making since May 2011, it was Grand Am/NASCAR that did the petting back then. Just after the Boss 302's rampage during its maiden season, Chevy threatened to pull the Camaro from GS. Of course, Grand Am abided... It removed the small restrictor (can't remember the size) and increased the Boss 302's restrictor from 62mm to 52mm. That's almost a 50% airflow restriction and if anyone remembers, it caused catastrophic engine failure in some cases. While the Boss teams were losing engines, the Camaro finished 2nd, 1st and 1st before the teams complained. Stevenson even called Roush out for “cheating” as they won the 1st race of this planned comeback. It launched the Stevenson car from 16th to 2nd in 3 races. After the 3rd race, the Boss’s restriction was decreased from 52mm to 57mm where it still stands today. The Camaro GS.R continued to race without restriction until its 7 liter replacement arrived… nearly unrestricted…

If we can set Professional Racing aside for just a moment and focus more on Grass Root Motorsports, this is my original beef and one of many. The whole “Assault” was calling them out, nobody knew the 2014 z28 would have extreme difficulty registering or classing the vehicle for competition. Eventually I think it became apparent, the z28 was not intended for competition like the Boss 302… or even its little brother the 1LE, they had the courage to sanction one in T2, only to be devoured by Coyote’s… The GT’s were strong that year, one even won the Run-offs. Nobody wants to talk about T2 results or what a nearly stock 1LE will do with a professional driver behind the wheel for 12 races a year. They would rather go back to that magazine article where an editor said the 1LE was faster, no doubt, hands down faster... Yet it can’t handle a 5.0 GT in public. Now, as production z28’s start making it into the wild, you don’t see astonishing times anymore. Randy Pobst hot lapped the z28 at Laguna Seca at 1:38… not what I expected… not what I expected at all… By the time it actually makes it to a timed event, the lap times are going to seem very, very… ordinary.

Furthermore, I can’t stand the Chevy marketing machine and I guess that’s why I’m directing this more towards the Camaro than the organizations. Chevy themselves is using this venue, organized road racing, to market the car to the public. That is the whole point to homologation. Chevy knew that they didn’t have anything to compete with the Boss or M3 liter for liter. They also knew the platform was awful bad as far as handling characteristics, understeer, roll center dives below the datum and the IRS is from Grandma’s car. One year Motor Trend tells you the SS is a fantastic handling car that nearly outpaced the GT at Willow. Four years later they tell you the Camaro SS was the first car they ever went off the track in at Willow… Just because they were trying to help justify the $80,000 dollars it will take to cure all your SS ills. Motor Trend also provides a supplement article about how the z28’s tires do not help performance that much… at the same time, they make a Goodyear look as good as the R Rubber Pirelli’s on paper. I’m almost positive they never considered what it was exactly they just did…

The principle idea is great, this specific genre is attractive to me and it has been since the 2000 Cobra R. I guess I just don’t get it, I was always under the impression the z28 was a hardcore competitive racer. The new one is more Super Tourer… but it cost far too much and very little can be done with it. Even taking the carbon ceramic brakes off may get the MSRP down into the $60k’s and, it may be accepted in some classes. While IMSA is to blame, it is by no means the only thing unsatisfactory. The z28 is what it is and it’s good at it but, it’s being forced into places it has no business being. I’m not alone on this apparently as there are CTSCC and ST drivers discussing the same topic. Another dark cloud over-shadowing the car is, will the actual production car duplicate the times and performance. As Randy Pobst has already figured out, something all the sudden has happened. Chevy (the Camaro in particular) is the only vehicle not complying with the set standards and organizations are giving them a pass. I have a feeling that it is pretty much due to the Camaro being an uncompetitive piece of crap. I want IMSA to boot them but at the same time, they are trying to keep the car count depth that most classes have lost since 2009.

…and I’m here to tell you, it won’t just magically stop once the 6th Gen comes out…

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