GT350 vs. Z/28

[Jim968]

...nor can I use a caged vehicles time to understand what the car is capable of.

The fact that there is no tubing running along the A pillar and no tubing running across the top where the roof meets the glass tells me that this car did not have a full cage installed. At most it would have had a roll bar, likely with 4 attachment points.

Pill is right that installation of a full a cage does make a difference, but not nearly as much as he claims. I built my race car from a street car, and I give the cage installation credit for around 1 second of my improvement in lap times. That’s on a normal US track. Multiply that by 5 due to the long track to get an estimate of a 5 second improvement on the Ring. However, as I pointed out there is no way that the 7:37 Z/28 had a full cage installed.

Sponsored

 

[thePill]

The fact that there is no tubing running along the A pillar and no tubing running across the top where the roof meets the glass tells me that this car did not have a full cage installed. At most it would have had a roll bar, likely with 4 attachment points.

Pill is right that installation of a full a cage does make a difference, but not nearly as much as he claims. I built my race car from a street car, and I give the cage installation credit for around 1 second of my improvement in lap times. That’s on a normal US track. Multiply that by 5 due to the long track to get an estimate of a 5 second improvement on the Ring. However, as I pointed out there is no way that the 7:37 Z/28 had a full cage installed.

That is true, some of the '13 GT500 mules didn't have an A-pillar tube. I would need a better look at the z28's interior to tell or not. However, I can't find a single media picture of the actual car... The ZL1's cage was very complex and very viewable from the media event pics. I'll keep looking but, the z28 that ran the Ring disappeared. We wil have to keep that in mind if they decided to run again.

It's great what your car can do at a track Jim but, your car isn't experiencing the G's and speeds as one of these at Nurburgring. Most OEM cars of this class, cheap platform we based, were just never equipped to deal with Nurburgring speeds. Both the S197 and 5th Gen has probably reached the point of diminishing returns. If a cage is needed, or used, I'd say the platform needs address first.

 

[thePill]

Try not to view it as the z28 gaining 20 seconds, try and see it as the car is performing beyond its stock capabilities.

...a cage makes it possible for any vehicle to function beyond its stock capabilities...

Key phrase; Beyond its stock capabilities.

Therefore, any performance based equipment found on a vehicle will have its performance amplified. Your putting different power down, your tires can be optimally cambered, your suspension doesn't bind on corner loads. All of those OEM variables, major ones, are now of little concern. A smaller concern than on a flexing chassis. A simple 6 point can double your torsional rigidity, an 8 point even more. Now, consider the ZL1's cage and time vs. The Caddy's.

I completely understand the testing media platform of Nurburgring. It is not a wise choice for a large majority of a vehicles test bed. If the data collecting comes from a caged car, it's difficult to apply any of that to the car... Nor should that be a signal of OEM performance. It's basically the chassis vs. The tires, and with the z28's tires, you can stretch the cages performance to new levels.

A cage is primarily the reason Ford doesn't market Ring times. A test bed sure, but they can't do that to people so blantanly. It's fun but educated people know better.

My personal issue is the fact that Camaro engineers know this but marketing still sells it to you. Then you get this huge recoil like "Why did MT say the SS handles bad", "Why is the GT500 just as fast as the ZL1" among other things promised and not delivered. Unfortunately, Nurburgring has become one of the few places owners can't call BS on. That is until you get caught shaving lap times...

 

[GMAN6]

That's funny.....
The ZL1 killed the Boss. I think you should read again. They said it barely beat it.
It has two extra liters AND a supercharger AND better tires AND independent suspension and it barely beat the Boss.

Really SAD when you think about it....

Ford is just so far ahead you really can't make any kind of argument.

Boss beats the 1LE

GT500 beats the ZL1

So they bring out a purpose built Z28 that does decent on the track but can't out run a Boss or GT500 in a straight line.

 

[Stuntman]

That's funny.....
The ZL1 killed the Boss. I think you should read again. They said it barely beat it.
It has two extra liters AND a supercharger AND better tires AND independent suspension and it barely beat the Boss.

Really SAD when you think about it....

Ford is just so far ahead you really can't make any kind of argument.

Boss beats the 1LE

GT500 beats the ZL1

So they bring out a purpose built Z28 that does decent on the track but can't out run a Boss or GT500 in a straight line.

2.4 seconds is alot:

"On the road course, the Camaro was 2.4 seconds a lap quicker and almost 10 mph faster at the end of the back straight. Roughly 4 of those mph were courtesy of higher cornering speed carried out of the previous turn. Even without the big power difference on the straight, the Camaro would have been constantly making ground on the Mustang with mid-corner speed. The Camaro can simply generate more cornering force and corner faster, thanks in part to front tires that are as wide as the Mustang's rears and rear tires that are 20 millimeters wider still. Coupled with a stiffer body and more compliant suspension, the Camaro is a more capable car around the track."

 

[Jim968]

It's great what your car can do at a track Jim but, your car isn't experiencing the G's and speeds as one of these at Nurburgring.

Nonsense. I’ve driven a street car at speed on the Nurburgring, so I know exactly what is involved. While extremely challenging, the Ring is not so radical a departure from good US road courses that it materially exaggerates the performance benefits of a roll cage installation.

 

[GMAN6]

2.4 seconds is alot:

"On the road course, the Camaro was 2.4 seconds a lap quicker and almost 10 mph faster at the end of the back straight. Roughly 4 of those mph were courtesy of higher cornering speed carried out of the previous turn. Even without the big power difference on the straight, the Camaro would have been constantly making ground on the Mustang with mid-corner speed. The Camaro can simply generate more cornering force and corner faster, thanks in part to front tires that are as wide as the Mustang's rears and rear tires that are 20 millimeters wider still. Coupled with a stiffer body and more compliant suspension, the Camaro is a more capable car around the track."

Yes, 2.4 seconds is a lot if you are comparing two relatively equal cars with equal power and tires. But when you add tires, supercharger, independent suspension it's not really "killing" it.
If a Stingray beat a Ford Taurus around the track by only 2.4 seconds, would you say the Stingray "killed" it?

But regardless, you are comparing a ZL1 to a Boss. It should be compared to a GT500.

Right now, Ford is building better cars, end of story.

 

[on d bit]

MT and Randy did the comparison and said it killed it. Not me. The Boss LS bested the M3 and the ZL1 bested the Boss. Not bad for a pig but they are both besting a 414hp benchmark.

The GT500 beat the ZL1.

 

[thePill]

Nonsense. I’ve driven a street car at speed on the Nurburgring, so I know exactly what is involved. While extremely challenging, the Ring is not so radical a departure from good US road courses that it materially exaggerates the performance benefits of a roll cage installation.

I highly doubt you were reaching the speeds displayed by the Z's and GT500. On a tourist day? Come on man... Trust me, the G's and cornering speeds of these cars have reached a point of diminishing returns. You need specialized equipment to determine what your suggesting you felt. Feelings vs. Engineering... Not a good test bed.

I can tell by the assumptions here that nobody has an education in this area. I really don't feel like discussing topics that require a degree with people that don't have a degree... It's like explaining surgery to the patient...

 

[Pablo GT350]

I highly doubt you were reaching the speeds displayed by the Z's and GT500. On a tourist day? Come on man... Trust me, the G's and cornering speeds of these cars have reached a point of diminishing returns.

I can tell by the assumptions here that nobody has an education in this area. I really don't feel like discussing topics that require a degree with people that don't have a degree... It's like explaining the surgery to the patient...

OMG I think you have really stepped in it now. Maybe the esteemed Doctor should just cancel this course.

 

[thePill]

OMG I think you have really stepped in it now. Maybe the esteemed Doctor should just cancel this course.

It's too difficult to try and explain these things to people that have do not have an education in this area. It's more frustrating than anything... That's why I stick to the entertainment aspect.

 

[thePill]

Stuntman,

Initially, an unrestricted Boss 302R ran in the 1:32-1:33 range at Laguna Seca, they are now running 1:36's. With 200lbs, tires and a cage, the car has picked up 6-8 seconds at Laguna Seca. Laguna Seca is a very, very small track. The cage is allowing the tires to be optimized more efficiently. It's also getting more out of lighter vehicle. 200lbs isn't gonna take that much time off, depends on the lap length. The cage becomes the foundation that everything is build upon.

Sorry, that's Racing 101...

 

[thePill]

Update: In case anyone missed the new spy pics, there are some new ones up. I'll post a direct link later on.

Anyway, our usual sneaky insiders over on that thread speculate that this thing is fast. It very well may be a proper and true GT class car. This will be the first time a Mustang has been an honest GT car since 1965...

I can't wait to see it along side the Corvette...

Edit: On a side note, the Cobalt airbag lawsuit is gonna destroy General Motors. That's gonna be a huge ding in Chevy's budget.

 

[thePill]

Off topic:

This GM Airbag lawsuit is quickly reaching critical mass. Delphi appear entry supplied the part. They made it clear the part didn't meet specifications. I guess GM approved the part anyway...

The media says that 303 deaths were airbag related.

The Cobalt (car in question) had 3 times the safety and airbag advertising boast than the 2nd most advertised. See a trend?

 

[thePill]

I stick to what you and every other reader has access to on the internet, I try not to talk about things that requires a paid education.

...and no, you are incorrect about the times, the Boss 302R needs restricted down to a 1:36. Initial test had is a few seconds faster and therefor, required restrictions. This also occurred with the M3.

You don't have an education in this area, there is no reason to figure out anything you try and articulate. Go get an education in this area if you want to true my understand this topic.

Sponsored