GT350 vs. Z/28

[Taneras]

I don’t call it tampering. I call it normal procedure for tracking any car.

I don't care what you call it, were the GT3 and GTR treated in the same manner?

Not likely, the conditions they were run in weren't even the same.

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[Jim968]

Don't forget Jim pretended to be the expert about Barber saying that no club racing occurred there. Perhaps he's right, but wiki disagreed. Lots of amateurs throwing around ideas on this forum... Hell even that magazine article had the incorrect distance listed. I think its clear that this isn't even close to a good comparison. Too many different variables that weren't kept consistent.

I never said no club racing occurred at Barber. In fact earlier in the thread I posted club race results from last month’s NASA race. What I said was there is no “Club Course” at Barber like there is at Mid Ohio. At Mid Ohio sometimes they race on the Club Course and sometimes they race on the Pro Course. All of the club racing at Barber occurs on the full course. Barber may divide the track for club schools, but not for racing.

FWIW I've been club racing for the past 11 years, so I do have some experience on the topic.

 

[Gmxblazer]

Here is my question is there any chance a performance package 2015 GT will beat a z28 in handling?

 

[Stuntman]

I don't care what you call it, were the GT3 and GTR treated in the same manner?

Not likely, the conditions they were run in weren't even the same.

Figuring out a cars ideal pressures takes a bit of testing and time. Magazines test a TON of cars and don't bother to try to eek out the absolute best performance of a given car. I'll haveto see if i can dig up the quote where Randy said they went with the door sill pressure numbers but they have to have some sort of test procedure. Since the procedure can have a big result on a cars balance and performance, what's the point of reading the article? -entertainment. Like thePills' posts. At the end of the day its probably not worth a ton...

Here is my question is there any chance a performance package 2015 GT will beat a z28 in handling?

I'd love to see how the 2015 mustang does with comparable R-comp tires. It'll probably be down ~50hp but hopefully ~300lbs lighter, but on smaller tires... Probably wouldn't be far off the Z28 and possibly match it...

 

[Jim968]

I don't care what you call it, were the GT3 and GTR treated in the same manner?

I'm interested in that answer as much as you are. If you find out definitively please let us know.

 

[Taneras]

I never said no club racing occurred at Barber.

You said...

There is no "Club" course at Barber Motorsports Park.

And there is, unless that wiki entry is incorrect.

What I said was there is no “Club Course” at Barber like there is at Mid Ohio.

You never mentioned Mid Ohio in that post.

Figuring out a cars ideal pressures takes a bit of testing and time. Magazines test a TON of cars and don't bother to try to eek out the absolute best performance of a given car. I'll haveto see if i can dig up the quote where Randy said they went with the door sill pressure numbers but they have to have some sort of test procedure. Since the procedure can have a big result on a cars balance and performance, what's the point of reading the article? -entertainment. Like thePills' posts. At the end of the day its probably not worth a ton...

I have no problem with them trying to eek out the most out of each car, it just seems that they tried more with the Z28. I don't think the GTR and GT3 received a "second try" in dryer, warmer, and possibly a more proper psi on their tires. Unless they did, I don't see why the Z28 was allowed it.

 

[Taneras]

I'm interested in that answer as much as you are. If you find out definitively please let us know.

And until that time, its more reasonable to assume that they were not given that same treatment. They only mentioned the Z28 as having a second shot at better times. Had they given the GTR and GT3 a second shot as well, they either wouldn't have mentioned 2nd shots at all and just reported the best time period or they would have also given the "before and after" attempts of the GT3 and GTR like they did the Z28.

 

[Stuntman]

I have no problem with them trying to eek out the most out of each car, it just seems that they tried more with the Z28. I don't think the GTR and GT3 received a "second try" in dryer, warmer, and possibly a more proper psi on their tires. Unless they did, I don't see why the Z28 was allowed it.

They didn't say if they did or not, but they said the GTR was run first and was coincidentally the slowest in a wet and drying track. I think the whole 'test' is a bit useless of a comparison. We also don't know MT's tire pressure test procedure but I doubt they constantly try to find the most ideal pressure for each car but they did lower them for the Z28. Not sure why, unless it was way off and something needed to be done, or it was a biased test.

On another note, it seems like you were putting words in Jim's mouth. I agree with Jim that there is only one main configuration of Barber and a cutout to make two (~half size) tracks -which I think they rarily do.

 

[thePill]

Just a tidbit, I really do enjoy a full fledge argument. I always welcome Camaro owners and fans here to throw dirt. That's the main idea. I do get aggressive but understand its a position Ive grown into. All my insults are just to get you heated, I do have respect for all people. I say let it fly, be passionate and bring the facts, even if it's only to turn an argument your way or not.

There is no need to be respectful, it's the internet... So f@&$ you...

But honestly, it can't be done without you... and thank you for perticipating. Please try not to let it bother you personally. If it's too much, shoot me a PM please and I can scale it back with the insults. It's probably not going to get any cleaner in here so, keep that in mind.

I'll be back later on, there is a lot of reading and I just can't keep my iPhone refreshed...

Have fun, be angry and may the best car (Mustang) win...

 

[Taneras]

They didn't say if they did or not, but they said the GTR was run first and was coincidentally the slowest in a wet and drying track. I think the whole 'test' is a bit useless of a comparison. We also don't know MT's tire pressure test procedure but I doubt they constantly try to find the most ideal pressure for each car but they did lower them for the Z28. Not sure why, unless it was way off and something needed to be done, or it was a biased test.

I'm with you that its difficult to do comparisons on a track, but that's all we have so I have no issue with them. I just don't think this one was done correctly. Which is fine, because as you said its more for entertainment. Except lots of people don't take it that way. Too bad the magazine article didn't mention the imperfections in this test run.

On another note, it seems like you were putting words in Jim's mouth. I agree with Jim that there is only one main configuration of Barber and a cutout to make two (~half size) tracks -which I think they rarily do.

I didn't put any words in Jim's mouth. He said no club course at Barber, and unless Wiki is incorrect about how those two bits of track are used, he's also incorrect. Sure its a minor point that doesn't change anything, just trying to show that we all make mistakes. No telling what I've said incorrect in this thread so far.

 

[Jim968]

You said...



And there is, unless that wiki entry is incorrect.



You never mentioned Mid Ohio in that post.

I could have been more clear. Barber does not have a configuration called the "Club Course" although they do have configurations used for club events.

Mid Ohio does have a configuration called the "Club Course" which is .15 miles longer than its "Pro Course" and frequently causes the kind of lap time confusion Pill was proposing.

 

[thePill]

Off topic fella's...

Main talking points here...

GT-R and 911 tested in wet, 30 degree weather.

GT-R and 911 never had tire pressure adjusted afterwards.

Randy wanted to take more air out of the tires, more than 6psi.

The z28 weighs a hefty 4000lbs with a 140lbs driver (lol)

The z28 ran its lap later in the day, R&T says 62 degrees

Road and Track are not permitted to release Barber lap times.

The GT-R was very, very slow... but in the 30 degree wet, I can see why.

The 911 sucked, with a 220 tread wear rating in the wet and cold, I can see why.

The 911 had 220 tread wear tires... That's no fun in 30 degree temps.

Motor Trend can't even get the track length correct, that's kind of a big deal.

Al O. says "We've never launched it" that's piss poor engineering, even at my level.

The z28 and 5th Gen is on a full size, 112 inch wheelbase, same as a Ford Taurus.

The car cost $77,000 dollars, it's just too much for a car not sanctioned and non-compliant in competitive Motorsport.

Ignoring the Z06, I highly doubt the z28 can beat one. Isn't the GT-R known to be faster at every track in the US? So the z28 is faster than a Z06/Z07?

Address these issues first, otherwise, it looks very defensive and your arguments are not good ammunition.

Hey, if Motor Trend prints something I guess it's fact but, just in a short while, I can poke holes through the whole story.

 

[Trackaholic]

I'm with you that its difficult to do comparisons on a track, but that's all we have so I have no issue with them. I just don't think this one was done correctly. Which is fine, because as you said its more for entertainment. Except lots of people don't take it that way. Too bad the magazine article didn't mention the imperfections in this test run.



I didn't put any words in Jim's mouth. He said no club course at Barber, and unless Wiki is incorrect about how those two bits of track are used, he's also incorrect. Sure its a minor point that doesn't change anything, just trying to show that we all make mistakes. No telling what I've said incorrect in this thread so far.

I think Jim's comment about the "No club course" made perfect sense, and it is in no way in conflict with what Wiki says. Clearly there is no possible configuration that could cause a 0.1 mile change in lap length. It is therefore obvious that there is no "club course" but rather shorter courses that can be used for "club events". There is a subtle difference in terminology, but it is one that is clear to those who have trackday experience. In the end, we can clearly see that MT made an error in their length on their chart.

Regarding Tire Pressures, MT has a history of mucking these up on their track tests. If you read their past "Best Drivers Car" procedures, you'll find that they actually ADD 5 PSI to the recommended pressures for their track testing (unless there is a MFG rep to recommend alternate pressures). This is in contrast to every track event that I've attended, where air needs to be bled from the tires as they heat up. Now, MT probably does this because they run only a limited number of laps and don't heat the tires as much as one does at a track day. However, it does show that they make little attempt to find the appropriate pressure to optimize the handling of the particular car in question.

I don't know if they used this same procedure on all the cars in this test, but I would bet that they never did go back and reduce pressures on the other cars and re-run their laps.

In the end though, the track times are impressive from all three cars, and whether there is a small advantage to the Camaro due to more optimized tire pressures is a minor issue. The most impressive areas of the Camaro's performance are that not only did it do very well on the track, but that it also did quite well on their street driving portion and was not a terrible vehicle to live with.

-T

 

[Trackaholic]

Off topic fella's...

Al O. says "We've never launched it" that's piss poor engineering, even at my level.

The car cost $77,000 dollars, it's just too much for a car not sanctioned and non-compliant in competitive Motorsport.

I think the "we never launched it" is being taken a bit out of context. The car was clearly optimized and tuned for a road course, and therefore a standing start is of less importance (most series perform a rolling start and for HPDEs you do a rolling start from pit lane). I'm sure they did some standing starts, and I'm guessing that statement is meant to indicate that they were not focused AT ALL on the straight-line, drag strip, performance. Clearly the car can handle the power as the ZL1 makes much more than the Z28. So, I'd say your criticism of this statement is a reach.

As far as your hang-up regarding "sanctioned and non-compliant in motorsport"....What car is? Every car that is going to do more than HPDEs will need at least a roll cage and likely a fuel cell and fire suppression systems. A 911, which is one of the most prevalent "OEM" cars in various series will need significant changes to be raced. Nobody is buying a street car and taking to a competitive race without making some changes. Clearly the Z28 is focused to people doing track days and possibly NASA-type wheel-to-wheel events for fun, where there are no rules. Hell, even a Spec Miata is going to have significant "updates" over a stock street car if you want to be competitive. I just don't get where you are coming from on this.

From my perspective as an HPDE enthusiast, the Camaro is almost the perfect car. It has a great engine, great brakes, and great shocks. The brakes will be extremely robust and will last much longer than a cast iron setup (but will be more expensive when they finally need to be replaced). The shocks seem to provide excellent control on the track as well as a reasonable ride on the street. The engine is very capable and should be reliable (if GM has taken care of the valve guide issues). Most of the mechanicals are based off a relatively inexpensive car, and should therefore be cheap to repair or replace (things like power steering pumps, wheel bearings, differential components, etc.).

The only downsides in my mind are the inital cost, the weight, and the horrible fuel economy. The biggest competition I see would be a C7 Vette with aftermarket brakes and an R-compound tire (which is probably what I would get with that kind of money).

-T

 

[PowerUp]

I think Jim's comment about the "No club course" made perfect sense, and it is in no way in conflict with what Wiki says. Clearly there is no possible configuration that could cause a 0.1 mile change in lap length. It is therefore obvious that there is no "club course" but rather shorter courses that can be used for "club events". There is a subtle difference in terminology, but it is one that is clear to those who have trackday experience. In the end, we can clearly see that MT made an error in their length on their chart.

Regarding Tire Pressures, MT has a history of mucking these up on their track tests. If you read their past "Best Drivers Car" procedures, you'll find that they actually ADD 5 PSI to the recommended pressures for their track testing (unless there is a MFG rep to recommend alternate pressures). This is in contrast to every track event that I've attended, where air needs to be bled from the tires as they heat up. Now, MT probably does this because they run only a limited number of laps and don't heat the tires as much as one does at a track day. However, it does show that they make little attempt to find the appropriate pressure to optimize the handling of the particular car in question.

I don't know if they used this same procedure on all the cars in this test, but I would bet that they never did go back and reduce pressures on the other cars and re-run their laps.

In the end though, the track times are impressive from all three cars, and whether there is a small advantage to the Camaro due to more optimized tire pressures is a minor issue. The most impressive areas of the Camaro's performance are that not only did it do very well on the track, but that it also did quite well on their street driving portion and was not a terrible vehicle to live with.

-T

Oh, GREAT!!! There you go, fouling up the waters, injecting OBJECTIVITY and REASON amongst these sorry diatribes from butt hurt Stang-stung folks...HOW DARE YOU?!

:shocked:

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