GT350 vs. Z/28

[Norm Peterson]

What's the reason you don't want Ford to turbo GT 350

Because forced induction is only about straight line acceleration it represents an effort to "unbalance" the car away from handling toward drag racing. And just like with drag racing, the first place people look to for increasing performance is to turn up the wick on the boost and unbalance it still further.

Not everybody cares to drive in the "point and shoot" style that forced induction tends to cause you to adopt. It gives the car the "feel" of being a drag racer that's not completely afraid of turning corners, as opposed to a car that actively enjoys them. Yeah, it's fun for a while to feel the full boost kick in once you're pointed straight again, but after that it's kind of "meh, didn't help me in that last corner any either".


Norm

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[thePill]

I think there is some confusion on rumored engines and possible packages. The new GT was engineered with the M3/M4 and 911 in mind. These are Boss 302 rivals in Motorsport... The new GT will out perform the Boss 302. This leaves Grand Touring classes open, where a Boss 302S was required. I believe Ford (with Roush) will man a GT class, GT350 soon. The GT350 will class against the Stingray/Z06, R8, GT3, 458 and the GTR.

I know there is a rumor of a forced induction Z06, it wouldn't surprise me if that LT4 was for the future ZR1. People assume the new rumored engine is going in the newly rumored Z06... See how solid that info looks?

We could see no more than a Hi Output, Coyote in the GT350. It may be the platform Ford showcases the first direct injection Coyote. I would leave the Voodoo go for now...

The EB5.0 could be the Cobra Jet engine for the Mach 1. It could eventually find its way into the GT500. I look for the GT350 or GT500 to showcase a PTWA Coyote soon as well.

In other words, look for these NA engine possibilities before any Voodoo engines.

Coyote 5.O H.O.
Coyote Direct Injected 5.0
PTWA Coyote 5.1-5.5l
Direct Injected, PTWA Coyote

Then, after those have been exhausted, a Voodoo 4.7 (289).

The forced induction options are endless, but won't been seen until the platform is adjusted.

 

[thePill]

Chevy's z28 marketing program is awful. I don't understand their method here nor reason they do things. The z28 was announced pretty early... Interest in the car was minimal to begin with and, I'm pretty sure it was meant to be. The only info released was challenged (and overruled)... Now a long Winter silence during probably the worse time to be silent. Now is the time for numbers... Ford has NOTHING right now, market the car now.

Yes, it lets them see the car. Ford can't follow suit for one. Another thing you need to accept, Ford has probably one up'd the z28 already. They won't need the actual car to beat it... IF they even care to.

I look to GT class competitors for the GT350. The GT (GT-R) took the Boss 302 competitors.

I could entertain the idea of multiple packages too. The R Package (pure race), a Titanium Package (or a Carbon/Black equivalent). With a GT350X, Ford could offer carbon ceramic brakes (and other no-no's). Ford needs a Carbon package that loads the GT/GT350 with exotic materials. A "Street" package...

 

[thePill]

There is a risk of embarrassment here. Both cars could be released at the same time and only the GT350 is promoted in organized Motorsport. To me, that is backing down or at least dodging a fight. The Boss, GT350 and z28 had the opportunity to track together. Chevy chose not to use that stage.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Saying that turbochargers have been successful in road racing is putting it mildly - more like turbocharging ultimately becomes the overdog that obsoletes everything else in the class.


Norm

 

[thePill]

There are internal sources close to the z28 "marketing" plan saying the 2014 z28 will be over $72,000 :( That's kinda disappointing if true. Some are suggesting the car will see $75,000...

Well, at least my Camaro sources are still accurate, thanks for the help Chevy. I am still pretty disappointed at the now official, not joking, no April Fool's MSRP of a steep $75,000 for the 2014 z28. That again is on top of the multiple other disappointments the z28 has brought upon the Camaro enthusiast and Pony Car fan. I get the vibe on the price thread on C5, it has been demonstrated to not talk about the price being too high. You can post "Awesome car but not for me" but that's about it. It's obvious, they couldn't make it any cheaper. As I said before, I couldn't price a z28 out part for part and get a number over $67k. There are tons of things the internal program had budgeted that I couldn't account for. There were also the cost of weight reduction that you just cannot see and put a price on. Eventually, we will see the car inside and out, in detail and see just how much is missing and what has changed. Anyway, how they arrived at the $75,000 will be kept internal... I suspect the profit margin on each is projected to be near the same percentage as the other model Camaro's. From what I gathered a few years ago, the average profit per vehicle was about $1000 for both Ford and Chevy and around $300 for Chrysler. I believe that was 2009/2010... It was considered good if I remember correctly. You need to figure models that were negative too but, who really knows what the spread was over the entire fleet. It could have been -$19,000 to +$21,000... and you never know where a certain model would fall. That's about as far as we can guess there... The $75k is still there though, and it makes a GT350 vs. "Z/28"... well... it really leaves the z28 hanging out there, ripe for the pickin's. If Ford can keep the GT350 in the mid-50's, low-60's... the 350 could win major media love for just being as fast for $XXXXX dollars less. Notice that is five "X's", AT LEAST!!! I took a stroll around the major media outlets like Motor Trend/Automobile and C&D/R&T to see what some of the non-pony car fans were saying. It is 95% negative on the final pricing, and those forums are an awful place to defend a product fella's. I certainly wouldn't leave those posters go, you need some kind of backstop in those threads.

Before we get fired up here, I need to switch the topic real quick. Not really changing the topic I guess but, kinda including another nameplate in here real quick...

The 2015 Z06... Many of you will come to find out that I have a place in my heart for the Corvette. Previously, there were certain circumstances that required me to talk bad about the Corvette, usually in defense of the Mustang when used as big brother. I won't avoid those conversations either, they are indeed two different class of car and, very little cross shopping goes on between the two. For me, the Corvette IS an American Automotive Icon, one of only two. Tremendous strides in all areas are vastly improved on from generation to generation. The C7 Corvette has not only eclipsed the Teams previous effort in all areas physical, it seems the Stingray embodies every ounce of heritage and Championship tradition the Corvette has laid down for itself for over half a century. The Corvette IS America, it IS Chevrolet...

There is some panic about the supercharged Z06 coming soon, instead of a healthy NA V8. DO NOT PANIC!!!...

Here is what I have planned for the Z06... remember, this is just for entertainment purposes only. My opinions or fortune telling on any topic related to the Z06 is just my own speculation.....

The 2015 Z06 will be forced induction, supercharged I guess but hear me out. Corvette, as well as the Z06 nameplate is of high value in Motorsport. Not only are those names that are easily identified, those names demand quite a lot of respect from manufacturers like Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, ect, ect... The Corvette DEMANDS it... (Please see Championship's). What Chevrolet cannot let happen is the Z06 nameplate drop completely from racing. Chevy does indeed have a C7.R prepped and ready for the season however Corvette fans, the Z06 is trying something different this time. The race bred Z06 is moving up market... It needs to... and, if this works AND if it is even done, Ford could possibly benefit from something like this.

The Z06 cannot be absent from racing, even for a single season I say... Not with the Viper hangin' around. I'm sure most Z06 racing fans want to see an NA V8 right? There is a possibility that the intended replacement for the outgoing Z06 N/A V8 is still under development. I wouldn't know what the displacement would be but I can bet on this... Since Porsche cried and moaned about the 7 liter LS7 until they had it capped at 5.5, there could be a smaller displacement, higher revving, NA V8 on the way to eventually take the form of the Z06/Z07 option. The Z07 could enjoy the reduced weight of an N/A V8 and a legal base to start all while the SC Z06 is intended for the open track events like HPDE. The drive train expenses can be re-routed to weight reduction, suspension, brakes, wheel/tire... Ya' know, all the racing goodies. Still being street legal and very livable just waaaaaaaaay more sawed-off than the Z06.

The 2015 Z06 will be a placeholder until the competitive Z06/Z07 is released. That won't happen until the LT2,5,7,8,9... whatever they call it comes out.

I am more excited to see what exactly the C7.R is using... That could very well be the basis for the Z06/Z07 fantasy engine I have dreamed up. A 5.5 liter Z06/Z07 Corvette. Can you say PURIST!!!

Gotta use 5.5 liters now since it was suppose to be a punishment (how I see it). Now the displacement has a history and a slight link to the LS7 for nostalgia.

Edit: Would anyone complain about a similar option for the ZR1? Is that stretching the Corvette too far? Z51, Z06 and ZR1 all in Motorsport? I don't think there are many classes about a Z06 and lower than a C7.R.

Edit 2: Someone drew this scenario to my attention... What if the SC Z06 was only a 1-2 year run until the NA Z06 was ready. Imagine the inherent value of a 2 year run of a factory supercharged Z06?

Edit 3: Someone suggested that the Z06 went to forced induction to create distance between the up coming GT350. There is a possibility that both the Z06 and GT350 would have been 500hp and 3400lbs... One is just half the price.

I think that all these scenarios are possible but, are they probable? After that, are they feasible?

 

[Trackaholic]

I don't think the C6 Z06 or ZR1 sold very well at the end. I almost get the feeling the Z/28 was a way for GM to use up old Ceramic Brakes and LS7's they had lying around the plant. That's one of my main problems with the car: it takes leftover C6 generation components, then charges you more than a C7 for them, all while being saddled with a heavy chassis. I still think they should have found a way to bring the price down to maybe $5000 less than the ZL1. It seems like they could have put a more aggressive cam on the LS3 and taken it to 475 HP pretty easily (I think they already have that option as a crate engine). Maybe make the Ceramic Brakes optional and just use a true two-piece iron rotor with aluminum hats. Anyhow, that car as-is just isn't right for me due to the price.

As far as the C7 Z06 goes, I think GM is trying to cover both the ZR1 and Z06 at the same time with one vehicle. I'm guessing the engine is basically the LT1 with a supercharger and the AFM removed. I've seen spy pictures of a convertible widebody, as well as ones with both ceramic brakes and what looked like two-piece iron brakes. I get the feeling that due to the tough sales of the previous Z06 and ZR1 at the end of the product run, GM is trying to keep the base price of the C7 Z06 in check. Well, I thought that, but the $75,000 Camaro makes me less certain. Anyhow, I estimate that the base car will be $85,000, while the ceramic brakes, carbon package, R-comp tires, and all that will push the price to maybe $110,000.

As for a 5.5 liter engine...I don't see GM making the investment. The only way they are going to get big power out of an engine that size is to go with a DOHC setup, which they won't do for the Vette alone IMO. I was hoping they'd have a cammed 6.2 with about 550 for the Z06, but it looks like that isn't going to happen. I also don't see GM making any more of a dedicated track version than the Z06 since that has been their track focused version for the last several generations.

If Ford can get the GT350 to be a normally aspirated version with, say 480 HP, weighing in at 3400 lbs, I'd be totally on board (just need to keep the rear seats so I can take my kids to school).

-T

 

[thePill]

Okay, now your starting to freak me out. I still have plans for a ZR1 right? I was under the impression that was still coming. I understand the concern and it's valid, that's why it makes me uncomfortable. I think sales of the Z06 and ZR1 Corvette were less than a 1000 a each. I don't know for sure... I think the Corvette is in a better financial position than the Camaro and, on numbers alone, $80-85,000 is possible. I do hate entertaining that idea and then see a a ZR1 MSRP of $120,000. Even if they price it that high, the Z51 is a far better option now. It is a far better deal than the out going Z06 in my opinion...

 

[w3rkn]

I think the Z06 will differentiate itself from the Stingray, in terms of handling, ride & performance.

Not just engine alone.

 

[thePill]

Just confirmed via Hot Rod, the GT w/R package uses a 380x34mm front disc. The GT is equipped with the largest disc brakes allowable in SCCA/FIA. The direction of the GT/R (lol) was aimed directly at entry level Motorsports... The GT will be widely accepted where the z28 is not. That was a missed opportunity for the z28 and I assure you THIS very topic will be used against the z28 for advertising purposes. The GT350 will be the one to run from...

Imagine if the z28 could class, and possibly along side the new GT.

$35,000 vs. $75,000? It is a silly comparison as is, the z28 twice the money and the GT could be sanctioned (not racing) next month.

"A STEED FOR EVERY NEED"

I'm sure Ford will take advantage of the z28's complications here. The entire Mustang lineup will scale accordingly...

It seems Ford has built the GT nearly to maximum spec in SCCA, this is an incredible base to start from. It wouldn't surprise me if the GT was faster than the Laguna Seca at the track it was named after.

Ford has aggressive weight targets set for the Mustang, and if they are as true as the F150, 10% was the mark and Ford got it.

10% of the Mustang's weight would be around 350-360lbs, that is the aggressive target (and the 400lbs rumor). However, they will not get 10% out of the GT, it will be slightly over 200lbs.

Ford is serious here, they delivered they 10% reduction in the F150, they are also on target to reach a similar margin.

 

[stable68]

Now the question is...does the gt350 use the carbon ceramics, or the steel rotors...weve seen both. Im thinking steel with option of carbon ceramic.

 

[thePill]

Now the question is...does the gt350 use the carbon ceramics, or the steel rotors...weve seen both. Im thinking steel with option of carbon ceramic.

That would probably be the way to go. Same with the previous SVT Track Pack and Performance Pack. There is also a possiblitiy that there could be Spec options to help merge the Boss 302S program into the OEM lineup.

The marketing term here is "A Steed for Every Need".

I'm sure they will point out where the GT350 can be used and, I'm sure they will point out any competitor that claim to be genuine, race bred and not so. This is where the z28 will likely be crucified... Just on the competitive usability alone.

 

[thePill]

Edit: The Return of the Street Fighter!!!

ALMOST READY!!! As expected, once the 2014 z28 was out in the open, Ford starts to let info fly. We have pretty much picked the 2014 z28 to death. We also discussed the phony in GS... The Camaro's position in Motorsport is highly unlikely to change. Only 500 are being produced this year, I think 1500 in the 2nd year. Then the z28 will gracefully bow out like the Boss 302... With no championship and literally unheard of in racing, it will just pretend it did great things, and try and capture the same glory the Boss did. Blah...

Of course it isn't 100% confirmed but, sources strongly urge that this is indeed a GT350, that it is naturally aspirated and, it is currently testing with 295/35R19's in every corner. I am hoping a 295 is all it needs... a 295/35R19 can be waived in SCCA. Unless it was increased from 2012... I know 305's up front are not allowed so... It would be nice not to handy cap. Of course, there could always be a "Competition Package" that brings the OEM tire size down.

There also looks like there will be two Competition Levels... The base GT350, which I heard referred to as Street Fighter. This could be just one guy calling it that... This Street Fighter will be legal and ready to run in multiple classes in SCCA, IMSA, NASA and FIA.

The second one, or what I am calling the GT350R, is suppose to be a Competition Ready trim and will likely be classed in more advanced company. I am hearing you can option out the GT350R with Carbon Ceramic Brakes, maybe even larger disc, adjustable suspension... whatever is in the catalog basically. If Multimatic is engineering the '15, it could be we see the z28's shocks on the GT350R.

However, understand that some of these options will limit your ability to compete is specific classes. I encourage everyone to READ THE RULEBOOKS before optioning out the GT350 or GT for that matter.

I am hearing the GT350 could start as low as $45,000... That's incredible... Not much of a comparison if this is true...

 

[thePill]

Spy shots and video a plenty, the GT350 is all over the internet. Hopefully we will get at least a confirmation that it is a GT350 and not anything else. I would giggle endlessly if it was just a Track Pack GT (GT-R)… I know I’m excited, the car is gonna rock… and give the competition a real run for their money. Speaking of competition, I haven’t heard much from Team Camaro lately. I haven’t seen much chatter on the interwebs as well. Kind of a dull thud… The Camaro Motorsport program is a joke, there almost isn’t a real need for the GT350. The GT and GT.R will probably be classed with the “Z/28”. However, it will give Roush a fantastic base to build a GT class car. The GT350 could also be the SCCA GTS car. The new 5.0 GT is pushing the limits of every single class it is eligible for. The only place for the GT350 is places like GT, GT3, GTS and T1. The GT will probably fill in most of the OEM Boss 302 spots… That’s a pretty big deal.

In my opinion, my Z28 Assault Thread was unsuccessful. After an endless caution, the worst fears were realized. If the fan base on Camaro5 would have been up to speed, there could have been some feedback and input from the fans. The 2014-15 “Z/28” failed on numerous levels, from heritage to motorsport, it missed the mark. It was another marketing exercise, one that pretty much failed at Nurburgring. Are they going back? Is it worth the money to close the track? There are only 2000 being made right? They should all be spoken for. What about VIR? That is becoming a great domestic marketing tool. Any track in the US is better and cheaper than Nurburgring. The GS car is nothing more than a Camaro GS.R, only this time it is built by Pratt-Miller and not Riley Tech. It’s a $300,000 car with the LS7 in it…

What does the Camaro have going for it? The OEM car is a great car I assure you. The carbon ceramic brakes are supposed to be long lasting. They only work good when they are hot I hear… Is there any magazine test out yet? You can order the car now, but I don’t think there has been a magazine test yet. It’s a little odd; usually there would have been some testing already. I honestly do not think the z28 is a better car than the ZL1. Put the z28’s Pirelli’s on the ZL1 and you have a faster car. You would even drop some unsprung, rotational mass… That would be a HUGE help. I think the whole z28 experience was very limp wristed. I’d go as far as calling the motorsport’s program totally half assed. This is why Ford doesn’t aim for the z28, or Camaro in general. The Camaro is in the process of moving backwards. The 6th Gen can’t come fast enough and I fear that it will be a 2017 model year… with possible delays beyond that.

It wouldn’t surprise me to see Ford pull a weight loss trick. I think we will see the MSRP trick like the Corvette has done too. I seen the GT in Pittsburgh Saturday, the car is awesome in person. The camera doesn’t do it justice. I love the fascia, the way the front fender flares wrap, the mouth is far more charming in person, the fascia’s ¾ and profile are the best in Mustang history. The whole car is just a complete package, it ties together and reminds you of Mustang’s past. It’s athletic, sporty, muscular and aggressive and classy at the same time. It is world class, and this is only the GT…

…the GT350 will be the greatest Mustang made to date…

Not only that, GT350 could possibly become the Z06 of this generation. With the Z06 moving to forced induction, it no longer will be the name mentioned when talking bang for the buck road racing competition. It was always the name mentioned to end an argument… The GT350 has an opportunity to claim that spot, that title… that respect. The car sounds great, it sounds like a DOHC Coyote to me.

I am almost inclined to ignore the z28 this round. Ford is positioned again to lower the hammer on the Camaro. Could be more devastating than the ’13 GT500’s impact. A car they still avoid at all cost and sandbag the cars lap times. I don’t even think they had a ’13 GT500, they were using a 2012 Boss 302. They can’t even afford to benchmark the current competition. All in all, and when it’s over, I think the GT350 was just positioned in a more comfortable spot. I am waiting on some magazine info so we can look at some more performance numbers from the Z. So far, it went ghost after the price was announced. That was the extent of it’s marketing campaign… I hope they have an SCCA compliant version available in 2015. They should have engineered the z28 in IMSA Grand Am and SCCA GTS. The 500 production cars should have been the dumbed down OEM versions. It may have saved them some money and could have lowered the MSRP. $75,000 dollars is way too much for the level of performance. You could get a Boss 302S for $82,000. It isn’t street legal but, there is a $57,000 ZL1 and a $60,000 Z51 Stingray.

The z28 has lost it’s way…

 

[ThunderHorse]

The z28 has lost it’s way…

Great post as always Pill. I'm just saving my pennies with my sights on on that GT350 monster. I salivate thinking of it..
-Yvon

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