GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

So what class & series are YOU going to compete in?

Both the. Toyota and Mazda are EP, we might have a AS car ready. I will split the regionals with a team mate if we get too busy.

I am also in the 11.49-12 second bracket (Drag), dropping to 11-11.5 hopefully this year. I want the Mazda but there is an issue and it was wrecked in practice. Not bad but enough to set it back. I will only be part time in the Toyota.

What class a YOU racing this season?

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[PowerUp]

Not sure what's more funny the title of that article or its contents. Their reasoning is poor, you can't point to particular parts on the Z28 then point to other more expensive vehicles and argue what they're arguing. At the end of the day its a Camaro on the zeta platform, not an Audi, not a Porsche, not an Aston Martin, not an AMG, just a Camaro.

Is that the way you felt when the BOSS bested the M3? "Just a Mustang..."

Bang for Buck its great, not the best but one of the best in that price range. But it shouldn't cost more than that, and its stupid to argue otherwise. Unless Chevy is losing money for each Z28 being sold (and they're not) its not under priced.

I think Jonny's point was, for the kind of money being charged for the Z/28, it's beyond "great" for anything anyone else is offering off a showroom floor, new, for $75,000.

The BOSS 302-R, in ready-to-race trim, runs similar times to the Z/28 at Barber. It costs MORE than the Z/28, and it's NOT street-legal or warrantied.

"Bang for Buck it's great". Without qualification.

 

[thePill]

The Boss and M3 are direct competitors, the Mustang has been in the M3's class since 2004. I expected Ford to offer a competitive Mustang, just like I expected the z28 too. I was really let down AND, the Camaro continues to destroy a Factory Racing Class.

They couldn't beat the Boss, dollar for dollar, liter for liter... The Boss has heritage, especially after the '11-'12 season. It pisses Team Camaro off...

Pissed enough to develop a 5th Gen z28 not once, not twice but three times. Only to disqualify it in the long run. If it was 300lbs lighter and $20,000 cheaper, it would have been dangerously competitive. It's not... not by any means. It isn't even an accessible option. With only 500 being built, it will be hard to come by and a headache to maintain. If I were PRO, spending PRO money... I'd get the 302S and spec as needed. How many of those 500, $80,000, non-sanctioned, non-compliant z28's will be caged this season...

Seriously, the z28 should have been a T1 car at least... The Z06 and Boss were... and still is.. Without it's brakes and tires, it isn't worth $80,000. I'd say $65,000 and at that price with missing equipment, ITS BOSS 302 food.

Keep in mind, this is a magazine comparison where one lap time was used for the entire MT report. Why? Can't it repeat said test elsewhere?

...and what's up with the lap times on a shorter track? The Z06 runs a 1:35-1:36 at Barber without the brakes on a full 2.38 mile track. How come the GT3 and GT-R became slower on a shorter layout?

Reminds me of the Milford GT500 run... What a load of sh!t. I'd be embarrassed as all he'll if I was caught cheating. NURBURGRING!!! Caught cheating again by a privately owned website owner. The CTS-V Challenge... Got caught cheating again.

They need to take a page outta Corvettes book, they don't cheat (or at least haven't been caught so blatantly. All while marketing this to you, as fact... I don't trust Team Camaro... I don't care how desperate they are, don't do that to people.

 

[Stuntman]

Both the. Toyota and Mazda are EP, we might have a AS car ready. I will split the regionals with a team mate if we get too busy.

I am also in the 11.49-12 second bracket (Drag), dropping to 11-11.5 hopefully this year. I want the Mazda but there is an issue and it was wrecked in practice. Not bad but enough to set it back. I will only be part time in the Toyota.

Very cool, sorry if you already have said it, but what Toyota and Mazda do you run? Do you own them or drive for a team?

Which car do you drag race in that bracket?

 

[PowerUp]

?

Another repetitive diatribe, pill, which simply doesn't answer the question I asked of Taneras.

Beating the M3 with the BOSS was no big deal because it was "just a Mustang"? Because a $75,000 production car, beating cars two and three times its price IS a HUGE deal, when we're talking cars costing as much as a $1/4 Mill.

There's a large difference between fanboyism, and being an auto enthusiast who fully appreciates a job well done. Like the BOSS 302 LS. AND the 1LE for sub-$40. AND the Z/28.

To paraphrase Strother Martin's character in Cool Hand Luke, "What we have, here, is a total lack of respect." And this, pill, goes back to your "if GM accepted MY design proposal for a Gen-5 Camaro refresh, it would be an awesome car!"

But since they didn't, "Z/28 Assault" ensued, filled with outright misleading/misspoken/cherry-picked/inane/inaccurate/non-applicable "data".

Even though the base Z/28 only has one speaker, your grudges and, therefore, thought process speaks VOLUMES through that one tinny speaker.

 

[Taneras]

Is that the way you felt when the BOSS bested the M3? "Just a Mustang..."

That's a heads up race comparison, not a comparison between specific parts of a car. The Z28 was being compared to super expensive cars only with regards to specific parts, and that line of thought lead the author to think that the Z28 was worth more.

Yea sure, the next cheapest car that has carbon-ceramic brakes standard might be the Audi R8 V10 Plus, but those brakes aren't why that car costs 170k+. Same goes for the dampers and engine. And even the author commented about how hand built engines are mostly a marketing tool (also he forgot that the Z28's engine is nearly 10 years old - older tech is cheaper).

It's a horrible point to attempt to make, and he only mentioned 2 parts (brakes and dampers) to make his case.

As for the M3 and Boss, no, my response to that comparison wasn't "Hrm, Ford should be charging more for this car".

I think Jonny's point was, for the kind of money being charged for the Z/28, it's beyond "great" for anything anyone else is offering off a showroom floor, new, for $75,000.

The BOSS 302-R, in ready-to-race trim, runs similar times to the Z/28 at Barber. It costs MORE than the Z/28, and it's NOT street-legal or warrantied.

"Bang for Buck it's great". Without qualification.

Jonny's point was clear, it was in the title...

"The 2014 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 Doesn't Cost Enough"

in the subtitle

"It’s Worth Far More Than Its $75,000 Sticker"

and again in the article

"We had a Chevy PR person in the office the other day, and while talking about the baddest ever Camaro, I mentioned that it should cost more."

The bang for buck argument is certainly starting to take shape with the recent comparisons (but even that is a "meh" point because while the Z28 might match them at the track its acceleration leaves a lot to be desired whereas the cars the Z28 is being compared to actually have amazing acceleration), although I'm a bit suspicious of them. If they're legit it suggests that the Z28 is on par with the C6 Z06 which I find very hard to believe. You can point to carbon ceramic brakes all you want, it's a good 600lbs heavier... But to suggest that Chevy should charge more for the Z28 because the brakes and dampers are the same ones that are found on much more expensive cars is a very weak argument.

 

[thePill]

This is the same Team that tries to convince YOU that the Boss 302 is a faster one lap wonder than the GT500... Even though the GT500 was never tested slower in any test, anywhere.

This is done because:

a.) The GT500 is a monster, one they hope will just go away

b.) The Boss 302's heritage, dominance and class compliance. The 1LE was a joke, it was raped by the standard GT in T2.

c.) They can't match ANY Mustang dollar for dollar or liter for liter. In order to build a z28 that could handle a GT500 strip, street and curcuit would elevate the MSRP another 10,000-20,000 dollars.

An LS9 Camaro comes to mind. A ZL1/Z28.... That is a $100,000 car. Then, and only then would they bring out a 2013 GT500 to test it against. Camaro prices are getting out of hand...

It's just not a good option for competitive Motorsport. It was built to brag, that's it...

Although, bragging is kinda lost in all the 4000lbs, $80,000 buy in, poor visibility (good bye paint job) and non-compliance/non-sanctioning. I loved HPDE's when I first started... I can't show up there with that much invested and nowhere to progress.

Initially, I tried an '11 5.0 in Germany (FIA) and was set to compete there. I had zero issues with inspection... I still didn't have what I needed to be competive. I looked to Pete at Pedders and Frank at Steeda during the off-season. It's hard work and a lot of money. I think hearts will be broken if this z28 is continued to be pushed as a race car. It's a Super Tourer for sure but that's PRO speeds. I still have 300lbs of required weight reduction to be competitive in the only class it's mentioned in. Not counting the shedding of brakes and tires. I don't even want to get into that mess. It will require new ABS calibrations along with new disc, pads and calipers. I just spend $80,000 on a car because of these parts... Now you think it's fine I would need to strip them?

Garbage...

 

[thePill]

Very cool, sorry if you already have said it, but what Toyota and Mazda do you run? Do you own them or drive for a team?

Which car do you drag race in that bracket?

The Miata and MR2. The Miata got lose a bit and has some left front damage, none affecting the wheel well. We retired the '68 SS from drag racing and it is in the works of getting a 350 (crate 454, on its way to OK). They are looking into AS to see if it will class. The old FIA car was an '11 GT and is now my personal drag car.

We talked about aquiring an FR500 from TCM. (Old Mustang Challenge car) but with the new '15 coming out, we are waiting.

There is also an RX7 being built in the top shop as well as a 2nd Gen Camaro (both SCCA) Everyone wants to drag race and I don't blame them. I would like to make some trips with Lethal (or Street Lethal) to drag with. This will be my first season back in road racing since !my injury in 2011.

I hear, there is a '69 Mach 1 up in the Motorsport garage now. I haven't seen it or know where it's going. The driver is a drag racer so, probably the strip.

PS, I have wrecked every season I have ever perticipated in. I also have a degree in Collision and Refinishing with Paint Chemisty. It won't be as expensive this year.

 

[Stuntman]

The Miata and MR2. The Miata got lose a bit and has some left front damage, none affecting the wheel well. We retired the '68 SS from drag racing and it is in the works of getting a 350 (crate 454, on its way to OK). They are looking into AS to see if it will class. The old FIA car was an '11 GT and is now my personal drag car.

We talked about aquiring an FR500 from TCM. (Old Mustang Challenge car) but with the new '15 coming out, we are waiting.

There is also an RX7 being built in the top shop as well as a 2nd Gen Camaro (both SCCA) Everyone wants to drag race and I don't blame them. I would like to make some trips with Lethal (or Street Lethal) to drag with. This will be my first season back in road racing since !my injury in 2011.

I hear, there is a '69 Mach 1 up in the Motorsport garage now. I haven't seen it or know where it's going. The driver is a drag racer so, probably the strip.

PS, I have wrecked every season I have ever perticipated in. I also have a degree in Collision and Refinishing with Paint Chemisty. It won't be as expensive this year.

Was it a spec-miata and what year MR2? I had a 92 Turbo back in the day, fun little cars.

Do you own a shop or drive for one?

 

[PowerUp]

It was built as a BENCHMARK. "This is what we can do with a weight-penalized platform. This is what a normally aspirated Gen-5 Camaro can REALLY be. This is what a street and track car can do. And this is what we CAN build, in the numbers predicated by supply of components vs. Government mandate vs. profitable demand at stated price."

Now...do you suppose the next-Gen Camaro track sensation will be built to capabilities LESS than what this one offers? The same? Or better?

If the GT 350 will be built to a higher standard and level of capability than the now-gone BOSS LS, don't you think the same will be true of the Z/28?

As car enthusiasts, shouldn't those expectations have ALL of us dancing in the streets, with regard to future product?

 

[thePill]

Was it a spec-miata and what year MR2? I had a 92 Turbo back in the day, fun little cars.

Do you own a shop or drive for one?

I bounce from Collision, to Refinishing, to Street Rod and Trim/Upholster (degree as well). I am heading up to Motorsport on Monday. This is my last year here, I am going to Industrial Design w/Automotive Core in September. Then on to Pontiac Michigan.

The family has several small businesses, I am placing my own shops across the rust belt soon. I will likely quit racing once I start with ID.

Edit: Both '99's, this is their last season. They are beat... If you don't stay with racing, with age, you lose your reflexes. I am staying in smaller cars until I either get better or change direction.

 

[PowerUp]

Taneras, have you followed Lieberman? He sells copy by being (in his mind) the second coming of "The Assassin", one Brock Yates.

But, he does have a point-of-view. And, in this case, he does make a valid point.

Sold in the paltry number Z/28s will be built in (roughly similar in total to the BOSS LS), against other low-production vehicles from "vaunted" names, it's hell of a performer in its intended environment: road course tracks, as a street-legal vehicle.

And its Bang for the buck IS indeed GREAT.

 

[Taneras]

As car enthusiasts, shouldn't those expectations have ALL of us dancing in the streets, with regard to future product?

Absolutely, when companies compete consumers win. I've always told diehard Mustang fans that the Camaro coming back was the best thing that could happen for the Mustang.

Instantly, almost magically, the GT gained 100hp and the V6 gained 60hp. Build quality also went up to a degree.

I'm not brand loyal by any means, if it looks sexy/sporty, performs good, and the price is right I'll buy it. While I do drive a Mustang right now, I was actually seriously considering a Hyundai Genesis V6 Coupe instead, yea yea laugh it up

I'm really interested in the S550's and I might prematurely pull the trigger depending on the specifics but I'm going to try and wait for the Alpha platform Camaro's to come out. Not huge on their current exterior, but hopefully it'll change into something I like better and would consider buying.

Anyways, the Z28 just isn't my cup of tea. Now had Chevy had a car that could do low 11's in the quarter, compete with the cars it's said to on the track, and have AC, stereo, etc, all for the same price or slightly higher (5k at most) then I'd be worshiping at the feet of this car. It doesn't do that, the C6 Z06 does and that's the car that I'm going to be praising until something knocks it off its pedestal. The Z28 is a solid car, I just don't think it deserves all the hype its getting. Give it a pat on the back, not a gold medal.

 

[thePill]

@ Powerup

Bud, listen... The Mustang has earned it's right to be compared to the BMW performance wise. It took them 5 years of competing and winning Championships Worldwide.

The Camaro is moving backwards in that respect. It hasn't challenged ANY of its main competitors nor has a good track record to fall back on. They chose not to be competive in their class... They skipped the Boss, M3, 997 and 370Z because, quite frankly, IT DOESNT BELONG THERE. They tried, and failed with the SS, GS.R, ZL1GTS, 1LE and now, they are totally avoiding a SOLID AXLE, 5 Liter Mustang that is almost 1/2 the price. They did ZERO work in this area, it's more evident now seeing them test 4 days before Daytona. Come on guy... It blows no matter how you spin it. It's homologated for a class that doesn't exist...

Looking at the z28, it doesn't really belong in GS, GT, GTS, T1, T2 or GT4. So why make one? To brag? Brag then and let me tell others what you can't do with an $80,000 Camaro.

It seems important to Al O, Camaro5 tires to discredit organized racing altogether once those rules were brought up. It hurts you guys, I know, one of the main reasons I post this info. If you can't compete at your own level, I highly doubt you'll be successful higher up.


REMEMBER, it's still a $25,000 platform with $52,000 dollars worth of band aids. That's what you called the GT500 right? They questioned the strength of the platform and the cost of it now based on the $25,000 V6 it's built on.

A cage less z28, at those speeds and G's, will be twisted into a fine mess after a single season. Ya' know, since it is basically a $25,000 platform. Just think of that 4000lbs at 1.06g's... That is like, 20,000lbs of force on that V6 platform ya' know.

 

[Taneras]

And, in this case, he does make a valid point.

So any car that has those brakes and dampers should automatically be worth more than 75k?

That's cool the Z28 has the same brakes as the 170k Audi R8 V10 Plus, how does that suggest that that in and of itself should make the Z28 cost more?

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