GM is pulling back on EVs

[GT 550]

The use of bolded text to reinforce a point is unfortunate, akin to yelling.

I use bold to highlight the part of a long quote I am replying to you. If you consider that belligerent then the problem is yours not mine!

The use of unnecessary '!' to assert that you're not belligerent is ironic. Caps lock next? Relax Greg it's difficult to grasp when you're wound up, but the points made by others are not by definition invalid because they don't align with yours not does it mean others are moronic imbeciles. A measure of open mindedness and consideration would probably reduce your obvious frustration.

Someone as articulate as yourself should be seeking to convince, not bludgeon others into seeing alternative points of view as the latter simply creates division.

The original conversation started when YOU said that individuals cannot produce their own electricity

Oh dear, didn't have to wait long for caps lock. Would you be kind enough to show where I wrote that? And let us not confuse 'can't' for not 'safe, sustainable, reliable' which it currently isn't. Over to you, either acknowledge your error or provide the relevant quote.

Now you change to comment about the grid and how it can or cannot cope.

Nope. My assertion has always been that the grid cannot cope. Re the 'change' there's no cause to go on the offensive about a segue to a related topic. It's a forum. I can do that. It's called discourse. If you can't be bothered properly reading what others write maybe don't read it at all.

You can spend all day complaining about how things can't work or you could contribute to their improvement - if everybody did what you do we would never progress at all.

Complaining has such a very negative connotation. Somewhat like suggesting that you're 'rabbiting and whining' only about the potential positives and in complete denial about the magnitude of the challenges. And again, nope. I've never suggested that they can't work I've only suggested that until a number of large magnitude strategic issues (e.g. the grid) are addressed there are very significant limitations to adoption that are not receiving commensurate attention.

I have no idea how to contribute to their improvement but would welcome such ideas, the only person on here who's probably qualified to do so is @Burkey who I believe has suggested that known grid fixes exist and would be appropriate with or without increased solar input. I've also expressed open mindedness and willingness to embrace electrification but again you failed to notice, possibly because you're already formulating your next 'blast'.

But since we're here Greg, if you at least acknowledge that the grid is in very poor condition and not up to the task, do tell what feasible and effective improvements you believe can be made. Then no one can further suggest that you're being myopic, a zealot, or revelling in hubris. Again, over to you.

The transition to EV's is not overnight, and nor will the improvements required to supply them.

The most fundamental of blanket statements but yes...my point, actually.

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[sk47]

It may have opened your eyes, but nothing new there at all.

I don't understand his 'existential threat' hyperbole. There are NO car makers that only make cars in Europe (other than a few niche makers) they all have manufacturing bases outside Europe as well, with many already making cars in China such as Ford. VAG make cars in China and India as well as Europe.

Well you would have thought so, but clearly not when it comes to cars and other goods.

My point was that Europe's car market is just a part of a global market made up of global players. Those companies already make cars in globally diverse locations and even market specific models. Jeep Avenger (Europe only) Ford Fusion (China only) Skoda Slavia (India only) There are no 'European car makers' they are all global.

Hello; A willingness to toss European branches of global car makers along with a few pesky niche makers on a garbage heap for an agenda is telling. Guess no sacrifice, by others, is too much for the cause.
You lost credibility in the medical realm during the Covid episode. Keep throwing away what little remains.

 

[K4fxd]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/left-flat-electric-car-charging-111321942.html

A reality in the UK far from Gregs utopia.


Another car was in the final slot, charging patiently. There was no room at the power inn.

I banged my head against the steering wheel and wondered what to do. After driving around at various speeds, idling in traffic and looping back on myself, I didn’t have the required range remaining in the battery to reach another charging point. Ikea was my last charge saloon.

 

[RagmopInKona]

GM is paying just over min wage in many states at the battery plant, and can't get workers, This is the real reasoning. Somehow they think And "average " of 15 bucks an hour is a good wage, said the CEO that salary is in the millions.
As much as we claim the youth are dumb, they Are not.
What, no one is signing up to work for peanuts at a plant that in a decade or more will find out if working with these materials cause health issues. Say it ain't so!
Also with so many willing to not return to work, and many more that can't afford a 40k vehicle, ev's at price points of 60-110k are D.O.A.
Tesla buyers are Steve Job's fan bois. They'll eat ramen noodles for 6 years to own one, and starve while paying for it. The general public are not this sick in the head.
So unless banks goto a 10 year loan model on ev's to make them affordable to the masses, they are a niche market most can't afford even with the hand outs offered by the empty suits .

 

[tripleyellowmustang]

Very good read and eye opening as well. EVs are no longer becoming a choice.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...dustry-to-existential-threat/?sh=315a163f154f

Interesting that China keeps coming up in these EV articles. It seems China outmaneuvered the rest of the world, who was all too eager to share technology with the Chinese through joint ventures, just to grab a slice of the Chinese pie. In the meantime China was busy investing in mining and processing rare earth elements and is now ready to dominate the EV market and already dominates much of the supply chain.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/chinas-dominance-in-battery-manufacturing/

Battery Manufacturing Capacity by Country in 2022
In 2022, China had more battery production capacity than the rest of the world combined.

	Total	1,163	100%
Rank	Country	2022 Battery Cell Manufacturing Capacity, GWh	% of Total
#1	China	893	77%
#2	Poland	73	6%
#3	U.S.	70	6%
#4	Hungary	38	3%
#5	Germany	31	3%
#6	Sweden	16	1%
#7	South Korea	15	1%
#8	Japan	12	1%
#9	France	6	1%
#10	India	3	0.2%
	Other	7	1%

China’s Near-Monopoly Continues Through 2027
Global lithium-ion manufacturing capacity is projected to increase eightfold in the next five years. Here are the top 10 countries by projected battery production capacity in 2027:

	Total	8,945	100%
Rank	Country	2027P Battery Cell Manufacturing Capacity, GWh	% of Total
#1	China	6,197	69%
#2	U.S.	908	10%
#3	Germany	503	6%
#4	Hungary	194	2%
#5	Sweden	135	2%
#6	Poland	112	1%
#7	Canada	106	1%
#8	Spain	98	1%
#9	France	89	1%
#10	Mexico	80	1%
	Other	523	6%

But we know we can trust he Chinese, Dr. Fauci told us so.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/12/14/rare-earth-mines-00071102

“China could easily decide to restrict access to rare earths again with disastrous consequences. As of today, China accounts for 63 percent of the world’s rare earth mining, 85 percent of rare earth processing, and 92 percent of rare earth magnet production. Rare earth alloys and magnets that China controls are critical components in missiles, firearms, radars and stealth aircraft.”

 

[AZlb5.0]

Interesting that China keeps coming up in these EV articles. It seems China outmaneuvered the rest of the world, who was all too eager to share technology with the Chinese through joint ventures, just to grab a slice of the Chinese pie. In the meantime China was busy investing in mining and processing rare earth elements and is now ready to dominate the EV market and already dominates much of the supply chain.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/chinas-dominance-in-battery-manufacturing/

Battery Manufacturing Capacity by Country in 2022
In 2022, China had more battery production capacity than the rest of the world combined.

	Total	1,163	100%
Rank	Country	2022 Battery Cell Manufacturing Capacity, GWh	% of Total
#1	China	893	77%
#2	Poland	73	6%
#3	U.S.	70	6%
#4	Hungary	38	3%
#5	Germany	31	3%
#6	Sweden	16	1%
#7	South Korea	15	1%
#8	Japan	12	1%
#9	France	6	1%
#10	India	3	0.2%
	Other	7	1%

China’s Near-Monopoly Continues Through 2027
Global lithium-ion manufacturing capacity is projected to increase eightfold in the next five years. Here are the top 10 countries by projected battery production capacity in 2027:

	Total	8,945	100%
Rank	Country	2027P Battery Cell Manufacturing Capacity, GWh	% of Total
#1	China	6,197	69%
#2	U.S.	908	10%
#3	Germany	503	6%
#4	Hungary	194	2%
#5	Sweden	135	2%
#6	Poland	112	1%
#7	Canada	106	1%
#8	Spain	98	1%
#9	France	89	1%
#10	Mexico	80	1%
	Other	523	6%

But we know we can trust he Chinese, Dr. Fauci told us so.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/12/14/rare-earth-mines-00071102

“China could easily decide to restrict access to rare earths again with disastrous consequences. As of today, China accounts for 63 percent of the world’s rare earth mining, 85 percent of rare earth processing, and 92 percent of rare earth magnet production. Rare earth alloys and magnets that China controls are critical components in missiles, firearms, radars and stealth aircraft.”

Greg brought up a very good point. America did this to ourselves. We wanted to outsource everything, thinking that it would end up “destroying” their land, water supply, and ultimately the genetic pool of our “enemies,”because of the toxicity of some of these chemicals and minerals. But when you have a population of over billion people in a hybrid communist country they won’t miss the death of a few hundred thousand folks. To be honest it might help their cause. I mean They’re having problems feeding and providing clean water to their population as it is.

 

[tripleyellowmustang]

Greg brought up a very good point. America did this to ourselves. We wanted to outsource everything, thinking that it would end up “destroying” their land, water supply, and ultimately the genetic pool of our “enemies,”because of the toxicity of some of these chemicals and minerals. But when you have a population of over billion people in a hybrid communist country they won’t miss the death of a few hundred thousand folks. To be honest it might help their cause. I mean They’re having problems feeding and providing clean water to their population as it is.

Yep, remember our motto, “Not in our backyard.” Unfortunately the same thing will continue with “green energy” mining. It’s a dirty business that nobody likes to talk about.

 

[GT 550]

It seems China outmaneuvered the rest of the world, who was all too eager to share technology with the Chinese through joint ventures, just to grab a slice of the Chinese pie.

Sadly, not just in this area. I'm sure they couldn't believe how easily and for how long western judgement remained clouded by arrogance and greed...we're now essentially compelled to expend vast amounts of national treasure to undo decades of activity that ultimately most benefitted our potential adversaries and the already mega rich. Do I blame the beneficiaries of the phenomenon of the last two decades? Of course not, what they did in full view was entirely legal and even encouraged. But I do feel that those of all persuasions who could've influenced strategic policy enough to curb the trend early were asleep at the wheel or in active denial/kicking the can down the road for so long that the challenge is now immense and almost every solution unpalatable.

America did this to ourselves.

Ahhh you guys don't get all the 'glory', the rest of the western (at least) world followed eagerly along behind.

 

[GT 550]

Australia has joined the United States and other Five Eyes cyber agencies to identify China as the culprit behind recent cyber attacks targeting "critical infrastructure" in the US.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-25/australian-intelligence-blames-china-for-us-hack/102390024

It's currently a lot easier to attack the grid from wherever you are than it is to stop fuel production, distribution, and usage. Just another pesky strategic consideration in the current situation.

 

[sk47]

Greg brought up a very good point. America did this to ourselves. We wanted to outsource everything, thinking that it would end up “destroying” their land, water supply, and ultimately the genetic pool of our “enemies,”because of the toxicity of some of these chemicals and minerals. But when you have a population of over billion people in a hybrid communist country they won’t miss the death of a few hundred thousand folks. To be honest it might help their cause. I mean They’re having problems feeding and providing clean water to their population as it is.

Hello; Another thing happening seems to be a lot of folks are leaving China for other places. Put the burden of feeding and providing water onto other countries. Wonder if it is the productive sort who are leaving? Wonder if leaving is voluntary? Wonder who is paying the cost of passage? Wonder if those leaving will have the best of intentions for the place they move to?

But yes, this was done to ourselves. Not with my support. Even before Ross Poirot warned us of a great sucking sound, I did not favor the outsourcing. fo

 

[Gregs24]

The use of unnecessary '!' to assert that you're not belligerent is ironic. Caps lock next? Relax Greg it's difficult to grasp when you're wound up, but the points made by others are not by definition invalid because they don't align with yours not does it mean others are moronic imbeciles. A measure of open mindedness and consideration would probably reduce your obvious frustration.

Someone as articulate as yourself should be seeking to convince, not bludgeon others into seeing alternative points of view as the latter simply creates division.



Oh dear, didn't have to wait long for caps lock. Would you be kind enough to show where I wrote that? And let us not confuse 'can't' for not 'safe, sustainable, reliable' which it currently isn't. Over to you, either acknowledge your error or provide the relevant quote.



Nope. My assertion has always been that the grid cannot cope. Re the 'change' there's no cause to go on the offensive about a segue to a related topic. It's a forum. I can do that. It's called discourse. If you can't be bothered properly reading what others write maybe don't read it at all.



Complaining has such a very negative connotation. Somewhat like suggesting that you're 'rabbiting and whining' only about the potential positives and in complete denial about the magnitude of the challenges. And again, nope. I've never suggested that they can't work I've only suggested that until a number of large magnitude strategic issues (e.g. the grid) are addressed there are very significant limitations to adoption that are not receiving commensurate attention.

I have no idea how to contribute to their improvement but would welcome such ideas, the only person on here who's probably qualified to do so is @Burkey who I believe has suggested that known grid fixes exist and would be appropriate with or without increased solar input. I've also expressed open mindedness and willingness to embrace electrification but again you failed to notice, possibly because you're already formulating your next 'blast'.

But since we're here Greg, if you at least acknowledge that the grid is in very poor condition and not up to the task, do tell what feasible and effective improvements you believe can be made. Then no one can further suggest that you're being myopic, a zealot, or revelling in hubris. Again, over to you.



The most fundamental of blanket statements but yes...my point, actually.

Emboldened to identify what I am responding too.

An exclamation mark at the end of an exclamation is entirely appropriate

As has been explained to you, solar panels are safe, reliable and sustainable. You said they are not - I have demonstrated clearly they are from experience. If you are unwilling to accept this then the problem is yours. Many millions of people worldwide use solar panels in a safe, reliable and sustainable way.

The US grid does seem to be in a poor state, the UK is less so, but planned developments to cover local demand are planned. What more do you want?

EVs and electricity | ESO (nationalgrideso.com)

National Grid - Electric vehicles

 

[K4fxd]

Greg must have missed several posts above that says UK's grid is not in very good shape.

 

[AZlb5.0]

Greg must have missed several posts above that says UK's grid is not in very good shape.

It’s easier to ignore when you stick your fingers in your ears close your eyes and start screaming blah blah blah blah

 

[Gregs24]

It’s easier to ignore when you stick your fingers in your ears close your eyes and start screaming blah blah blah blah

You should know all about that

 

[AZlb5.0]

You should know all about that

Deflection deflection if it wasn’t for it you wouldn’t have much to offer to this thread.

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