GM is pulling back on EVs

[Burkey]

Hello; Guess the back and forth we had about Chinas emissions vs USA emissions could be a place to start. Wonder if your criticism of the USA where emissions are less than Chinas will translate to your dislike of me and other individuals personally or as i recall about the USA as a country.
In case you recall has lapsed again, the posts where you used per-capita emissions arguments to defend China. Or perhaps the posts where you give China a pass on building new coal power plants every ten days but do not give the USA when our coal plants are being decommissioned.

Yeah, no need to waste time and energy as i got the gist back then.

Good lord…
I wasn’t “ defending” China. I was pointing out that YOU need to pull your head in, just like us here in Australia and MANY other countries.
China isn’t doing a great job. YOU are doing WORSE, as is MY country.

What makes it worse is that YOU don’t even accept the premise of the argument and yet you want China to do things that you won’t even advocate for in your own country.

You’re a simpleton.

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[sk47]

Good lord…
I wasn’t “ defending” China. I was pointing out that YOU need to pull your head in, just like us here in Australia and MANY other countries.
China isn’t doing a great job. YOU are doing WORSE, as is MY country.

What makes it worse is that YOU don’t even accept the premise of the argument and yet you want China to do things that you won’t even advocate for in your own country.

You’re a simpleton.

Hello; Thanks. now i do not have to go back to look for an example. Gotta love the way you stand up for your beliefs at least.
So, somehow in your thinking a country building and putting into use two or more coal fired power plants a month just not doing a great job, while a country which has been tearing down some coal fired power plants is doing worse.
Just today saw on the news that the coal power plant in Kingston TN is due to be replaced with greener alternatives. Now as an individual I am not keen on tearing down coal fired power plants in good working order just to be doing something green. I am funny that way in that i want to be warm in the winter and figure a working power plant with a reliable history ought to be kept around until the "green" stuff is shown to actually do the job. So I can accept it if you were indeed miffed at me only. Just does not read that way in your posts.

But you are correct in that I do not accept your premise. Thing is regardless of what you may think of me, my country has reduced overall pollution/emissions the last few decades. China on the other hand is not even pretending to reduce pollution/emissions. They are, in fact, ramping up day by day.

From this simpleton, enjoy the hew ICE.

 

[GT 550]

I could also drag up battery installations but the uptake is so low (for good reason at the moment) that it was pointless. This will of course change once EV ownership gathers pace, leaving many people with a battery or two parked in their garage.

Unless I'm not following correctly I'll wager it doesn't. There's no cost relationship between batteries and EVs ie the uptake of EVs doesn't reduce the cost of batteries, so until the cost of batteries and the fire hazards they present are addressed I can't see how that's a valid assumption.

Those challenges are relatively easily solved, but it costs money.

Being 'easy solved' and costing (lots) are often mutually exclusive in this type of venture. Anything that costs in the order of magnitude that it would to address grid issues is just not going to be easily solved (refer previous posts re inability to move national strategic projects forward). I respect your advice that it's a simple solution, but beyond cost it also won't be easy due to the nature of the decision making apparatus and current structures. Refer also previous posts re UK issues, which appear common globally and which we appear to be destined to follow, no?

The ability of administrations to live in denial of reports about an oncoming train see us mired in situations such as the domestic debacle regarding the grid. 'Here have subsidised solar...gee that went well...OMG turn it off it's melting the grid '. Warnings of that particular oncoming train were delivered many times over the last decade but did they listen? The theoretical feasibility and potential benefits of EVs are largely pointless if the appropriate strategic infrastructure policy doesn't support them and it isn't underpinned by robust cost effective implementation. Perhaps by 2033 there will be a raft of reviews and inquiries into whether we allowed electrification to run before it could walk etc because I'd be amazed (and happy) if grid issues were addressed by then.

Further, if the grid 'cork' isn't convincingly addressed in a timely manner the uptake of small generators and potentially R&D into batteries et al may also be arrested due to a plateau in demand, which will keep costs high. Much of the angst around EVs and small generation solar arises from the complete vacuum of tangible strategic leadership that should reassure us all is in hand including the disposal of current gen batteries. When my PVs were installed I witnessed a steady gratifying output over several months, however over the next few months output resembled a saw tooth due to what I discovered were voltage spikes due simply to an increased rate of solar uptake in my area. It took several months to have this investigated and several more to have it acknowledged and addressed, and had I not been diligent in monitoring and researching this in a timely manner I might now be wondering why my appliances are behaving badly and my bill hadn't changed. Given this situation isn't a phenomenon I'm at a loss to understand why the energy provider didn't monitor it and act accordingly but surmise it's because it's not their job, no one told them to, and they weren't going to pay the salaries of extra people required to do it. Or maybe they saw it as a means to pressure those who needed to take notice. It only took a ladder and a large spanner ie 'simple fix' but it was nevertheless quite an ordeal, and all due to a few small generators being added in the local area. We can't even get that right, noting that the 'trifling' matter of archaic strategic infrastructure has taken years to even become a public issue despite industry warnings. Until the level of sophistication improves dramatically and is underpinned by strategic policy all the good from EVs and small generators can be undone by a failure of public policy, which is why we're seeing small domestic generators turned off remotely.

So, despite the high uptake rate, I can’t remember the last time we had an unplanned outage.

That's great but where I live and in places I visit they have a different experience, to the extent of needing to install diesel generators because the infrastructure has been badly planned, neglected, and the cost of infrastructure upgrades in these locations is prohibitive.

The flip side is that many of those changes would deliver a better quality supply, even if solar wasn’t in the mix.

But despite the benefits being known for what I suspect is a considerable time, they haven't happened. And now solar is well and truly in the mix as are EVs and still there's no sign of the 'simple fix' being agreed upon and funded.

 

[Gregs24]

The use of bolded text to reinforce a point is unfortunate, akin to yelling. If you're becoming belligerent perhaps take a break.

It's not clear what your definition of 'getting along really well with solar PV' is but it doesn't appear to be shared as broadly as you perhaps believe. You claim to be at a loss to understand my point/s, for clarity I'll remind you that one of them was around the conspicuous absence of national strategies/policies and grid sustainability, and the potential downstream effects. Please consider the UK based articles below, from a variety of sources, for further clarification unless of course you wish to dismiss all of it as baseless or erroneous.

I use bold to highlight the part of a long quote I am replying to you. If you consider that belligerent then the problem is yours not mine!

The original conversation started when YOU said that individuals cannot produce their own electricity - they can and this is very clear if you wouldn't mind accepting that. As also pointed out that method is safe, reliable and sustainable at the level we are talking about - as in your house.

Now you change to comment about the grid and how it can or cannot cope. Different subject, but yes clearly the grid needs improvement. In the UK 'National Grid' who are responsible are very open about the fact they have the capacity to produce the electricity for everybody using EV's but that the local infrastructure needs improving to cope. <belligerent on>Very clear and open, with a plan to achieve it</belligerent off> . Those articles you quote just reflect the challenges ahead rather than the solutions. You can spend all day complaining about how things can't work or you could contribute to their improvement - if everybody did what you do we would never progress at all.

The transition to EV's is not overnight, and nor will the improvements required to supply them.

 

[Gregs24]

Why car parks are the hottest space in solar power - BBC News

France to require all large car parks to be covered by solar panels | France | The Guardian

Makes complete sense - shade for the cars plus lots of self supplied charge points generating their own power

 

[sk47]

Another wheel has come off the great electric car con (msn.com)

“The trouble is that this is not how green politics works. Rather it is in the hands of student-like activists who will obsess about one narrow objective to the exclusion of all other concerns. The promotion of electric cars is a case in point. Their cheerleaders have turned them into a pin-up for the green movement – while ignoring the carbon emissions from their manufacture, the consumption of heavy metals in the making of their batteries, and the filthy pollution from their tyres.”

 

[sk47]

Unless I'm not following correctly I'll wager it doesn't. There's no cost relationship between batteries and EVs ie the uptake of EVs doesn't reduce the cost of batteries, so until the cost of batteries and the fire hazards they present are addressed I can't see how that's a valid assumption.

Hello; I think I follow the logic here. EV champions have posted that current high costs of EV's is due to start-up costs. The speculation seems to be the cost per unit will drop as more and more units are made & sold. An economics of scale sort of thing I suppose. There are reasons to speculate why this might be true going by historical examples. But there is a catch maybe.

I think i see you point. A big barrier to cheaper batteries is the need for rare earth minerals which are currently not easy nor cheap to get. A limiting factor may be a way to state it. As long as these minerals are expensive to mine and process the cost of battery packs will stay high.
Add to this the basic numbers involved. I will not pretend to have the latest figures but even with some increased EV sales numbers they are still small sales numbers when compared to ICE overall. EV sales are to increase as ICE sales are to be banned, if EV sales continue to do so, then even more pressure for the rare materials follows. Supply & demand ought to keep battery cost high.

I understand some technical breakthrough can change the game in a hurry. Lasers come to mind. Early lasers needed expensive rubies to function. Costs were high. Now that barrier is overcome, and they are cheaper. Point being that sort of game changing new tech for EV's is not real yet. Lots of promising ideas around, but no ah ha moment.

 

[sk47]

GMC Hummer EV Battery Teardown Proves Our Fears (msn.com)
Hello; News here but nothing dramatic. We already knew the Hummer is massive. We already knew the battery pack is massive. I did not know just how much they weighed.

No useful comment from me about how the cradle of the battery pack is made. The author takes exception to using steel.

My paranoia is beginning to start a bit. We have been dissecting the "green & BEV" agenda for months now. Way more critical issues discovered than I first thought there might be. Many of the answers from the various champions are pat answers which often do not address the issues fully. I begin to wonder if this has been well thought out by anyone behind the scenes.
Saw a movie where a bunch of folks went to a new place. Once they got to the new place and looked around some had questions. A leader of the group burned the boats they had arrived in. A no turning back move. Just a silly movie.
If we do away with the old power, heating and transport systems we will have no backup.

 

[AZlb5.0]

Very good read and eye opening as well. EVs are no longer becoming a choice.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...dustry-to-existential-threat/?sh=315a163f154f

 

[sk47]

Very good read and eye opening as well. EVs are no longer becoming a choice.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...dustry-to-existential-threat/?sh=315a163f154f

Hello; maybe one of the champions will explain it all away.

 

[AZlb5.0]

Hello; maybe one of the champions will explain it all away.

Besucase you know green

 

[Gregs24]

Very good read and eye opening as well. EVs are no longer becoming a choice.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...dustry-to-existential-threat/?sh=315a163f154f

It may have opened your eyes, but nothing new there at all.

I don't understand his 'existential threat' hyperbole. There are NO car makers that only make cars in Europe (other than a few niche makers) they all have manufacturing bases outside Europe as well, with many already making cars in China such as Ford. VAG make cars in China and India as well as Europe.

 

[AZlb5.0]

It may have opened your eyes, but nothing new there at all.

I don't understand his 'existential threat' hyperbole. There are NO car makers that only make cars in Europe (other than a few niche makers) they all have manufacturing bases outside Europe as well, with many already making cars in China such as Ford. VAG make cars in China and India as well as Europe.

Chinas ability to kill their own because they don’t like what they say, encampments for minorities they don’t like and slave labor turns most people off.

 

[Gregs24]

Chinas ability to kill their own because they don’t like what they say, encampments for minorities they don’t like and slave labor turns most people off.

Well you would have thought so, but clearly not when it comes to cars and other goods.

My point was that Europe's car market is just a part of a global market made up of global players. Those companies already make cars in globally diverse locations and even market specific models. Jeep Avenger (Europe only) Ford Fusion (China only) Skoda Slavia (India only) There are no 'European car makers' they are all global.

 

[K4fxd]

Hello; maybe one of the champions will explain it all away.

@sk47

They are global companies so that makes it ok for China to run them out of business.

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