GM is pulling back on EVs

[RagmopInKona]

Because I’m not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you again. Nor am I going to waste time explaining to you that the very processes that are used to build these things are also producing less emissions, year on year, as a result of progress. You know, that thing that you’re opposed to…

As usual, the vast majority of the leading scientists on the planet agree with the idea, but somehow you and your brethren know better because you read something on a website dedicated to hating on turbines/EV’s/Solar.

Why don’t you visit flat earth pages to find evidence that the planet is flat? Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it, but that’s effectively what you’re doing.

Something else to remember in all of this is that CO2 typically hangs in the atmosphere for 300-1000 years, so the idea of front-loading the emissions of the next 12 months or perhaps even 20 years, starts to make more sense when you view it though that lens.

I don’t suppose any of the sites you’re visiting happen to mention that inconvenient fact though, do they? Instead they just focus on the immediate emissions of renewables, without mentioning the implications of the counter argument,

As usual, just ignore some pertinent facts and you can reach your preferred conclusion.

You hate ice so much. Why you here other than to troll.

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[Burkey]

You hate ice so much. Why you here other than to troll.

Who said I hate ICE’s? I actually LOVE them.
I also loved cigarettes, but that doesn’t mean that I should’ve kept smoking.

 

[martinjlm]

I hate ICE so much that I spent the evening with my car club hanging out on Woodward Ave taking in the sights and sounds. Lumpy cams, Dodge supercharger whine, burping downshifts, the occasional two-step, Lamborghinis and McLarens high revving. Love the sights and sounds. But I can’t ignore the fact that I also got to witness a Model X silently roast a GT500 right in front of us. Times, they are a-changing. Whether we like it or not.

 

[K4fxd]

Times, they are a-changing. Whether we like it or not.

The problem is the fast track timeline the .gov is shoving down our throats.

The last no prep I went to there was some kind of Tesla that ran 9.50 1/4 miles.

 

[Burkey]

I hate ICE so much that I spent the evening with my car club hanging out on Woodward Ave taking in the sights and sounds. Lumpy cams, Dodge supercharger whine, burping downshifts, the occasional two-step, Lamborghinis and McLarens high revving. Love the sights and sounds. But I can’t ignore the fact that I also got to witness a Model X silently roast a GT500 right in front of us. Times, they are a-changing. Whether we like it or not.

The bit where we can drive cars with ludicrous amounts of torque DOES hold a certain appeal. Yeah sure, a blown Mustang is stupid fun, but being able to fry tyres at both stupid speeds and almost no revs also holds a certain appeal.
I’m sure I’d miss the V8 soundtrack at first and then realise just how ridiculous the interior of an ICE can be when you properly derestrict the exhaust.

Did anyone mention the bit where you can be having fun in a EV without alerting the cops 10 blocks away? Surely that’s a HUGE bonus for some of us. Not me of course, I always play by the rules.

 

[sk47]

Hello; Point taken. EV's have one distinct feature which is the instant torque of the electric motor(s). So, if stoplight acceleration is the main feature desired an EV can fill the bill. I like the instant torque of my circular saws, drills and impact drivers myself.

 

[martinjlm]

Hello; Point taken. EV's have one distinct feature which is the instant torque of the electric motor(s). So, if stoplight acceleration is the main feature desired an EV can fill the bill. I like the instant torque of my circular saws, drills and impact drivers myself.

Thing is, that is not at all the purpose of the Tesla Model X. It’s a grocery getting daily family transport. The fact that it roasts super cars at the blink of an eye is bonus. Just wait until automakers put their minds towards making no foolin’ EV sports cars. They haven’t even really tried yet.

 

[Gregs24]

I know we are far along on this thread, but let me pose an argument.

Since hydrogen burns absolutely clean. Has the highest specific energy density than any fuel other than nuclear. It’s naturally the most abundant molecule/fuel. It’s definitely cleaner than EV battery sourcing/ making and even more so than conventional ICE engines. Why is Toyota the only one moving in this direction and what would EV proponents have against this?

They aren't. Many other companies investing in hydrogen, some with working vehicles such as JCB

 

[sk47]

A 9-hour drive in Toyota's new electric SUV showed me how brutal EV road trips can be with the wrong car (msn.com)

Hello; A little reality check. Instant torque at a stop is fun I suppose. Driving on the road can be a lot less fun.

 

[martinjlm]

A 9-hour drive in Toyota's new electric SUV showed me how brutal EV road trips can be with the wrong car (msn.com)

Hello; A little reality check. Instant torque at a stop is fun I suppose. Driving on the road can be a lot less fun.

Interesting article. A few things need to be noted.

1. The writer acknowledged that the vehicle he was driving has an uncompetitive charging system. “Every EV has a maximum charging rate, expressed in kilowatts (kW), that governs the amount of power it can accept from roadside fast chargers. For the bZ4X AWD I tested, that's an uncompetitive 100 kW.” Most of the newer EVs on the market can take a lot more charge a lot faster than the bZ4X. Since this thread is (theoretically) about GM pulling back on EV, let’s see what they say…”The Blazer EV will be capable of charging on a DC fast charger and Chevrolet says it can charge at up to 190 kW and add about 78 miles of range in just 10 minutes.”
2. Toyota intentionally designed the battery charging system to favor battery life over charging speed, meaning it will slow down charging under certain conditions. Keep in mind that Toyota is behind GM and others in lithium ion battery development. The Prius only recently started using lithium ion. “Toyota engineered the SUV to prioritize battery longevity, a spokesperson said, which means putting a damper on fast charging, which can accelerate battery wear.” GM and Hyundai in particular have significantly better approaches to balancing charging time to battery wear. If there’s one thing we know about engines, it’s that they ain’t all created equal, sports fans. Some are demonstrably better than others. This holds true for batteries, electric motors, and charging systems developed by companies that are focused on developing EVs (GM, Hyundai) compared to those that are actively pushing back on the transition (Toyota).
3. Driving range decreases with high speed driving. Where have I seen that happen before? Oh yes…every gasoline car I’ve driven since the beginning of time. Battery range decreases with more usage of the HVAC system. Ditto. That should come as no surprise to anybody. It’s basic physics. The more aggressively you use the energy, the faster it will deplete. Where ICE has an advantage is that you have almost no problem finding a place to refuel. For EVs that is a lot more difficult, though not as crippling as some would have you believe. The good thing, from my perspective at least, is that the better EVs do a really good job of letting you know how much faster range will deplete so that you can plan around it and reduce the instance of butt clenching situations. The Toyota the writer drove is not so equipped. Here’s one of the best examples I’ve seen in the many EVs I’ve had the opportunity to drive. Not the only approach. But the best I’ve seen. Genesis GV60 (Genesis is Hyundai’s luxury brand).
   

The writer’s experience is what it is and cannot be denied. It can be pointed out though that it is not the typical EV experience, but more likely an experience on the tip of the bell curve. Some will experience this, most won’t. And a significant number of people will say “9-hour trip? Maybe we should take the <insert name of ICE CUV> instead of the EV”. The same way people today say “Family trip? Maybe we should take the Edge instead of the Mustang”

 

[sk47]

Interesting article. A few things need to be noted.

1. The writer acknowledged that the vehicle he was driving has an uncompetitive charging system. “Every EV has a maximum charging rate, expressed in kilowatts (kW), that governs the amount of power it can accept from roadside fast chargers. For the bZ4X AWD I tested, that's an uncompetitive 100 kW.” Most of the newer EVs on the market can take a lot more charge a lot faster than the bZ4X. Since this thread is (theoretically) about GM pulling back on EV, let’s see what they say…”The Blazer EV will be capable of charging on a DC fast charger and Chevrolet says it can charge at up to 190 kW and add about 78 miles of range in just 10 minutes.”
2. Toyota intentionally designed the battery charging system to favor battery life over charging speed, meaning it will slow down charging under certain conditions. Keep in mind that Toyota is behind GM and others in lithium ion battery development. The Prius only recently started using lithium ion. “Toyota engineered the SUV to prioritize battery longevity, a spokesperson said, which means putting a damper on fast charging, which can accelerate battery wear.” GM and Hyundai in particular have significantly better approaches to balancing charging time to battery wear. If there’s one thing we know anbout engines, it’s that they ain’t all created equal, sports fans. Some are demonstrably better than others. This holds true for batteries, electric motors, and charging systems developed by companies that are focused on developing EVs (GM, Hyundai) compared to those that are actively pushing back on the transition (Toyota).
3. Driving range decreases with high speed driving. Where have I seen that happen before? Oh yes…every gasoline car I’ve driven since the beginning of time. Battery range decreases with more usage of the HVAC system. Ditto. That should come as no surprise to anybody. It’s basic physics. The more aggressively you use the energy, the faster it will deplete. Where ICE has an advantage is that you have almost no problem finding a place to refuel. For EVs that is a lot more difficult, though not as crippling as some would have you believe. The good thing, from my perspective at least, is that the better EVs do a really good job of letting you know how much faster range will deplete so that you can plan around it and reduce the instance of butt clenching situations. The Toyota the writer drove is not so equipped. Here’s one of the best examples I’ve seen in the many EVs I’ve had the opportunity to drive. Not the only approach. But the best I’ve seen. Genesis GV60 (Genesis is Hyundai’s luxury brand).
   

The writer’s experience is what it is and cannot be denied. It can be pointed out though that it is not the typical EV experience, but more likely an experience on the tip of the bell curve. Some will experience this, most won’t. And a significant number of people will say “9-hour trip? Maybe we should take the <insert name of ICE CUV> instead of the EV”. The same way people today say “Family trip? Maybe we should take the Edge instead of the Mustang”

Hello; Since the battery pack is among the most expensive parts of an EV to replace, maybe the most expensive, It makes sense to program parameters so as to increase battery life. I even do the same when charging the trolling motor battery for my boat. I use the lowest (2 amp) setting. Guess you do not do work for Toyota?

Also, since Toyotas head man recently questioned the push to EV's somewhat and stood up for ICE a bit, I guess Toyota is on the outs with EV fans to a degree.

Yes an ICE can use more fuel to drive faster. The old inverse square rule. To go twice as fast requires roughly four times the power. So same for EV's and ICE. Thing is the ICE driver can be warm while using more energy. I know my pick. In hot weather my wager will also be on the ICE. The AC can drop MPG's a little but the AC in an EV ought to drop he range a lot.

Last part is interesting and also very telling. I get it. Burkey gets it. Best to have an ICE around if you have to do something serious with a vehicle. Need to tow or haul then park the EV pickup and use the ICE version. Have a family and live in a rural area get an ICE as Burkey did because no EV exists to fill the bill. So, the answer for when you need to make a trip of nine hours is to use an ICE.
Have both ICE and EV is the solution??? Kinda hard to see the save the planet angle with that idea. Awfully expensive to say the least.

But you do make it sound almost reasonable. Pretty slick.

 

[Gregs24]

And a significant number of people will say “9-hour trip? Maybe we should take the <insert name of ICE CUV> instead of the EV”. The same way people today say “Family trip? Maybe we should take the Edge instead of the Mustang”

9 hour trip - maybe try a more appropriate form of transport. I would not drive 9 hours in Europe when trains and planes are MUCH quicker and cheaper.

 

[sk47]

We Could Solve 100% of Climate Change With a Modest Surcharge on Gasoline, Scientists Find (msn.com)

Hello; This idea is a lulu. Another black eye for scientists. The 50+ cents per gallon added to gasoline is a clue. Modest???.

The kicker for me is the salt the earth bit. That is what victors in war used to do to the land of the conquered. Grow plants to be buried and then salt the land.

 

[sk47]

9 hour trip - maybe try a more appropriate form of transport. I would not drive 9 hours in Europe when trains and planes are MUCH quicker and cheaper.

Hello; How nice it is to have trains handy just where you wish to go. So many do not have that option. Out of touch.

 

[martinjlm]

Hello; Since the battery pack is among the most expensive parts of an EV to replace, maybe the most expensive, It makes sense to program parameters so as to increase battery life. I even do the same when charging the trolling motor battery for my boat. I use the lowest (2 amp) setting. Guess you do not do work for Toyota?

Also, since Toyotas head man recently questioned the push to EV's somewhat and stood up for ICE a bit, I guess Toyota is on the outs with EV fans to a degree.

Did you read the part where I said that GM and Hyundai are better at developing lithium ion batteries than Toyota is? Their batteries can charge faster and still maintain long battery life. GM’s batteries are warranted 8 years, 100,000 miles. Same as Toyota’s (NHTSA requirement). Hyundai’s are warranted 10 years 100,000 miles.

I do not work for Toyota (but I own one) or Hyundai and I haven’t worked for GM since 2017. What’s the point?

Yes an ICE can use more fuel to drive faster. The old inverse square rule. To go twice as fast requires roughly four times the power. So same for EV's and ICE. Thing is the ICE driver can be warm while using more energy. I know my pick. In hot weather my wager will also be on the ICE. The AC can drop MPG's a little but the AC in an EV ought to drop he range a lot.

You have absolutely zero evidence to base that on. You don’t even know how any particular EV manages cabin heat. There are multiple technical approaches to this. Not all automakers take the same approach. The Genesis in the picture that I posted shows that with AC on, range is 143 miles, with AC off, it’s 152. That’s a 6% efficiency penalty. EPA guidelines for ICE is that use of AC can impact fuel range by as much as 25%. Now, I am not going to claim that every EV has a 6% efficiency penalty and every ICE has a 25% AC penalty. That would be ridiculous. It all depends on conditions at the time and how hard the AC would need to work. What I will say is that this particular Genesis is well within the range of ICE norm, despite your assertion (with zero evidence) that it would “drop (t)he range a lot”.

Last part is interesting and also very telling. I get it. Burkey gets it. Best to have an ICE around if you have to do something serious with a vehicle. Need to tow or haul then park the EV pickup and use the ICE version. Have a family and live in a rural area get an ICE as Burkey did because no EV exists to fill the bill. So, the answer for when you need to make a trip of nine hours is to use an ICE.
Have both ICE and EV is the solution??? Kinda hard to see the save the planet angle with that idea. Awfully expensive to say the least.

But you do make it sound almost reasonable. Pretty slick.

You, I and Burkey would agree on pretty much most of this. I have never said that EV is for everybody. There are situations where ICE is the better solution. Thing is, as automakers move further along their electrification path, the situations where ICE is better than EV are dwindling. Early EV adopters bought EVs as a second or third vehicle. Maybe specifically for commuting, maybe short errands. As EVs have begun to cover more vehicle segments (SUV, CUV, family sized sedans) people started making the switch to where the EV became their primary vehicle and the ICE was reserved for those instances where it did the job better than the EV. I see by your signature that you have a Silverado and a Sentra. Do you also have a Mustang? Do you have the Silverado and Sentra to do the things your Mustang is not well suited for?

I can say for certain that as much as I enjoy driving my Camaro, when it’s family trip time, we’re taking either the Volt or the SRX. I don‘t have or want a pickup. For the 2-5 times a year that I need a pickup I’ll rent one or borrow my FIL’s pickup. Likewise, a number of EV drivers who have an EV as their only car recognize that for the 2-5 times a year that they need to drive more than the range of the vehicle in a single day, they have the option to rent an ICE if they are not comfortable with their ability to find fast charging.

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