GM is pulling back on EVs

[key01]

EV cost of ownership is about the same as gas-powered vehicles: Study (msn.com)

Hello; This story is mainly about England, I think. Seems some fees are to be charged to EV drivers.

Near the end is a comment about Americans driving pickups.

Yes, lost revenue from lack of fuel sales(state taxes) is driving these taxes also in the US. 17 states now have this added annual “EV” tax, including my state ( Illinois-$100), California, Michigan, etc and even your state of Tennessee ($100).

I’ve been trying to buy a Ford Maverick hybrid ( without much luck). In Illinois hybrids and plug-in hybrids are exempt from the EV tax.

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[Tinpot]

I’d expect the UK VED to rise steadily over time to match ICE vehicles as more and more EV’s are sold. It forms such a large part of UK tax income for the Govt. that they can’t afford to play loose and fast with this. How this affects the overall running costs in the future is anyone’s guess due to the uncertainty in the energy markets. Approx 40% of UK electricity is generated from gas at present and electricity prices from renewables is tied into prices from gas generated electricity, although the UK govt are currently looking at ways to disassociate this in order to bring the cost per KWH down.

 

[sk47]

The problem with solar is the inefficiency it adds to the system.

The best simplified apology I have here is this. Imagine a greenhouse that can feed the entire community. This green house runs year round and provides 100% of the communities food(natural gas). Food prices stay very stable in his system. Supply is fit to meet exact demand.
Soon smaller grower start selling food grown in the warmer months grown outside in local gardens(solar). This food is available only during the summer and drives down prices during warm months. The green house obviously cuts production in the summer and maintains production at a higher price during the winter.

Eventually greenhouse completely cuts production during the summer months and doubles prices in the winter.All this has done is raise the food prices by whatever prices people have to during the summer since they will pay twice as much half the time

What is needed but doesn’t exist is a way to store this perishable product but adding intermittent excess production only drives prices up because the idled capacity needed to fill the gaps come at a much higher price.

It is only a matter of time before the economics of solar become negative and utilities are forced to stop buying excess production. You personally can benefit buy using the power for you own home but if enough people did this the cost would just be shifted to the dark times. AKA solar would cost you money own.

Hello; I get the analogy. Power companies currently have stand by natural gas fired power generators which can be fired up quickly to meet spikes in demand from time to time. Heat waves or artic blasts that roll in from time to time.
Most of the time the coal fired, nuclear and hydro run at a sort of steady state. These can be made to run at higher generation levels but not so quickly.

If solar becomes widespread and does not have some workable storage plan for excess, then the traditional power companies will be expected to act as "stand by" to fill in the gaps when extra power is needed. A company cannot keep a plant standing by while they are not making a regular income. So, they will have to charge a lot more for the standby power they generate at time when solar or wind do not keep up. I get it.

 

[Gregs24]

The problem with solar is the inefficiency it adds to the system.

The best simplified apology I have here is this. Imagine a greenhouse that can feed the entire community. This green house runs year round and provides 100% of the communities food(natural gas). Food prices stay very stable in his system. Supply is fit to meet exact demand.
Soon smaller grower start selling food grown in the warmer months grown outside in local gardens(solar). This food is available only during the summer and drives down prices during warm months. The green house obviously cuts production in the summer and maintains production at a higher price during the winter.

Eventually greenhouse completely cuts production during the summer months and doubles prices in the winter.All this has done is raise the food prices by whatever prices people have to during the summer since they will pay twice as much half the time

What is needed but doesn’t exist is a way to store this perishable product but adding intermittent excess production only drives prices up because the idled capacity needed to fill the gaps come at a much higher price.

It is only a matter of time before the economics of solar become negative and utilities are forced to stop buying excess production. You personally can benefit buy using the power for you own home but if enough people did this the cost would just be shifted to the dark times. AKA solar would cost you money own.

Solar is a great idea in theory but the economics just aren’t there yet.

That is why the UK has a mix of solar and wind. Solar works just fine and storage is available in the form of batteries (short term) or hydro (longer term). This is all well established technology and works well

 

[sk47]

That is why the UK has a mix of solar and wind. Solar works just fine and storage is available in the form of batteries (short term) or hydro (longer term). This is all well established technology and works well

Hello; Well established and works well? Guess we will get to see how well it works this winter. My take has been the technology is just not widespread/extensive enough to make much difference.
There is a practical level at which things such as a power grid needs to function. Pretty sure solar and wind are not at that level yet.

 

[jtmat]

Hello; Well established and works well? Guess we will get to see how well it works this winter. My take has been the technology is just not widespread/extensive enough to make much difference.
There is a practical level at which things such as a power grid needs to function. Pretty sure solar and wind are not at that level yet.

Believe he was speaking of UK....

If so, below are sites for you to update your knowledge. The UK is also playing the long game... with a plan (or so it seems) that goes out to 2050. So of course it is "not there yet".

https://assets.publishing.service.g...data/file/1094025/UK_Energy_in_Brief_2022.pdf

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/energy-explained/how-much-uks-energy-renewable

https://www.carbonbrief.org/wind-and-solar-are-30-50-cheaper-than-thought-admits-uk-government/

 

[AZlb5.0]

Believe he was speaking of UK....

If so, below are sites for you to update your knowledge. The UK is also playing the long game... with a plan (or so it seems) that goes out to 2050. So of course it is "not there yet".

https://assets.publishing.service.g...data/file/1094025/UK_Energy_in_Brief_2022.pdf

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/energy-explained/how-much-uks-energy-renewable

https://www.carbonbrief.org/wind-and-solar-are-30-50-cheaper-than-thought-admits-uk-government/

So if it’s game plan is to provide, 100% of the population in the UK the ability to attain consistent power, for heating, cooling and daily living. How much longer, until it can provide all those needs, and also support the needs for let’s say 50% household EV ownership?

 

[jtmat]

So if it’s game plan is to provide, 100% of the population in the UK the ability to attain consistent power, for heating, cooling and daily living. How much longer, until it can provide all those needs, and also support the needs for let’s say 50% household EV ownership?

Did you read the links and look for others that might help you? I'm not an expert on UK plans for household/EV needs.

I was simply helping a fellow forum member.

Let me know what you find out...

 

[sk47]

Believe he was speaking of UK....

If so, below are sites for you to update your knowledge. The UK is also playing the long game... with a plan (or so it seems) that goes out to 2050. So of course it is "not there yet".

https://assets.publishing.service.g...data/file/1094025/UK_Energy_in_Brief_2022.pdf

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/energy-explained/how-much-uks-energy-renewable

https://www.carbonbrief.org/wind-and-solar-are-30-50-cheaper-than-thought-admits-uk-government/

Hello; Yeah, my response post was not so good. I thought his post was a pat answer and replied with a pat answer of no better quality. I get that someday solar/wind, excess power storage may possibly be all worked out. I tend to look at the current state of things and see huge hurdles.

To beat on a theme already hit a few times, it is the idea of trashing an energy system which works very well currently and replacing it with something big on future promises and short on results so far.

 

[Gregs24]

Believe he was speaking of UK....

If so, below are sites for you to update your knowledge. The UK is also playing the long game... with a plan (or so it seems) that goes out to 2050. So of course it is "not there yet".

https://assets.publishing.service.g...data/file/1094025/UK_Energy_in_Brief_2022.pdf

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/energy-explained/how-much-uks-energy-renewable

https://www.carbonbrief.org/wind-and-solar-are-30-50-cheaper-than-thought-admits-uk-government/

He was responding to an Australian so not sure ??

I was responding to the suggestion solar was not the the answer to electricity production with an explanation that it is part of the solution and that storage of electricity is possible, and has been going on for years in the UK. As you can see pumped storage has increased steadily. The water is pumped up the mountain during the day using spare electrical capacity (solar as an example) and then gravity powers the turbines during the night as the water returns back down.

Batteries also provide short term storage. We have car charging stations that have a combination of solar PV's and batteries that allow cars to charge day and night.

 

[Gregs24]

So if it’s game plan is to provide, 100% of the population in the UK the ability to attain consistent power, for heating, cooling and daily living. How much longer, until it can provide all those needs, and also support the needs for let’s say 50% household EV ownership?

So the current grid obviously already does that at present from current generation capacity. The UK generates 103% of the power it needs. The plan will be the reduction of fossil fuel based generation over the next 10's of years. There is also a plan for the grid to support the charging infrastructure for EV's. It should be remembered that UK electricity consumption has been falling for many years as a result of efficiencies such as LED lighting. There are plenty of areas / countries further down the line than the UK that already support much higher penetration of EV's which are a useful source of data and information allowing effective planning.

 

[Paul McWhiskey]

Just to add in here, it is fantastic to hear that the UK is doing all of the things that it is doing and that the "science" is all there to point to a fabulous future of cheap energy. However, right across the channel is a nation that provides much of its energy to its people with nuclear plants. News here is that Scandia Labs in Livermore just had a big deal with fusion a couple of weeks ago. I think in terms of how many solar deserts and ugly ass wind turbines I would not have to look at and the really "cheap" and safe energy I could be getting if we used nuclear. I believe the last nuclear plant that was commissioned here in the US was at least 50 years ago. If it is good enough to power our carriers, submarines, and God knows what else, I have to believe that it has made great strides in safety in the last 50-60 years.

 

[Burkey]

Solar is a great idea in theory but the economics just aren’t there yet.

That’s a VERY broad statement.

The number of factors that can or will dictate how economically viable solar might be is quite lengthy.
It makes perfect sense where I live but might not be such a great choice in other regions for reasons that aren’t purely geographical or even contingent on the prevalent weather systems.

In South Australia there’s a whole lot going on right now in terms of investigating the potential for using solar power to make hydrogen for export to markets where they might otherwise struggle to produce renewables at the scales required.

Have a think about it. Instead of exporting coal, we could be exporting our sunshine (but in a bottle).

Whether it shows any promise remains to be seen, but I can almost guarantee you that the solutions won’t be found by people who aren’t looking for them.

Quoted from the link below:

“Study shows first exports of hydrogen from South Australia to Port of Rotterdam feasible this decade
A new study has found South Australia’s world class renewable energy resources will give South Australia a competitive edge in the race to supply clean hydrogen to Europe through the Port of Rotterdam.

The pre-feasibility study shows South Australian hydrogen is expected to be competitive on the future hydrogen market in Rotterdam and could supply up to 10% of Rotterdam’s hydrogen requirements in 2050. Rotterdam’s hydrogen demand is forecast to reach 18 million tonnes per annum by 2050.”

https://www.energymining.sa.gov.au/industry/modern-energy/hydrogen-in-south-australia

Just to be clear, this is from the state government department of MINING, not some random bunch of radical lunatics. Knowing that your industry needs to adapt and being willing to embrace it is precisely what we need to see a lot more of as we move forward. I’m guessing this is why big oil is also now investing heavily in renewables.

 

[Vlad Soare]

In South Australia there’s a whole lot going on right now in terms of investigating the potential for using solar power to make hydrogen for export to markets where they might otherwise struggle to produce renewables at the scales required.

Say, that's a very neat idea!

 

[Gregs24]

It doesn’t change the fact that it could be cheaper and more efficient.

I don’t have first hand experience but from what I have read the UK is looking at a power cost crisis this winter. What are your thoughts on this?




That’s just power generation. Power transmission is a completely separate conversation.

The power cost crisis is directly related to the war in Ukraine.

The most expensive power being generated in the UK is from gas at present

Renewables are the way forward, from an environmental and energy security point of view.

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