GM is pulling back on EVs

[jtmat]

Yet you completely ignore the environmental and human damage from the making of the batteries. How convenient.

That is definitely not true. I take an overall view of issues on both sides. Fair and balanced, unlike some hacks. But you can believe whatever you want.

While you are drafting your crafty reply, here is another example of the danger we all face. Look at that pollution! Don't ignore it.

This has to be stopped!!!! At least some people are doing just that! End this madness I say!!!!

MEMPHIS, Tenn. — A crash involving a tanker truck caused an explosion of fire in South Memphis Saturday morning, according to the Memphis Fire Department.

https://wreg.com/news/local/tanker-involved-crash-causes-fire-in-south-memphis-1-injured/

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[sk47]

That is definitely not true. I take an overall view of issues on both sides.

This has to be stopped!!!! At least some people are doing just that!

Yet you completely ignore the environmental and human damage from the making of the batteries. How convenient.

Hello; Thing is I have yet to see a single post from jtmat pointing out EV fires and the like. The overall view has appeared to be very one sided for a long time. So yes, very convenient.

Thing is burning coal, wood and most oil derivatives does produce some pollution. Not clear to me why natural gas has recently been thrown under the same bus, but such has happened. Oil and coal have been around for centuries for coal and over one century for oil products. So yes, all that history is known as well as the drawbacks of using these energies. A positive thing is great strides have been made so these fuels are much cleaner than just a few decades ago.

The choices right now are somewhat simple. We can stop the use of all coal and petroleum products next week as a world. Next thing that happens is world economic, production and distribution grinds to a halt. Soon some folks begin to starve, eventually almost all run out of food. Should be some electricity left in the grid but nowhere near enough to meet a minimum demand. I could go on with things like this but not much need because I keep hoping the world will not join in this lifestyle suicide pact.

Like it or hate it coal, oil and natural gas are essential to having our current lifestyle. The "green energy" and EV transportation dream is a fine but unrealistic notion. Will be unrealistic for some time to come.

In some idealized future the notion is no fossil fuels are to be used at all. That we will harness the energy of the sun (wind and solar) for all our needs. Theoretically such is possible as the solar insolation each day is much more energy than we currently use. The problem has been and continues to be it is so widespread and thus diluted. A non-point source of energy.

Back many decades (five to six) ago I read about and talked with folks about these sorts of ways to capture wind and sun energy. The main issues were already known back then. Not too much has changed. Mainly small practical computer systems to use as control units and perhaps better rechargeable batteries.

While a student 50 + years ago in one of my master's degree physics classes I drew up a crude way to regenerate/capture braking energy in a car. Was to run a belt off the driveshaft to spin a small generator and charge a battery. The batteries were only heavy lead -acid. No personal computers yet just the ones which took up large portions of buildings. The problem was in the control of the basic parts. Modern EV's are so very much better. However still not ready to take the load of fossil fuels for transportation.

What appears to have happened with jtmat may be a second dose of reality about the state of BEV's and green energy has penetrated the illusion. Thus, the recent rants. Those such as I have presented compelling evidence and information refuting much of the hype. Much more is known and understood about the problems and limitations of EV's and "green energy". They are both better than in the past but still not at a needed threshold level.

What is the evidence that jtmat has already had a first dose of reality? That is the wisdom to hang onto his ICE for another four years if i recall correctly. I poke fun at this from time to time to be sure. Not because i think it is a dumb move. To the contrary. i think it is a wise move. I intend to do the same until an EV can meet my needs at a reasonable price. I poke fun at the hypocrisy.

 

[Bulldog9]

The Idiocy of the EV trend is that they were initially acting as if transitioning completely to EV's was feasible or realistic. It's not, not even in highly developed urban and suburban communities.

All the talk of going completely EV is rubbish in the real world, and we are seen manufacturers come around to this reality. Most are pulling back, not just GM. Stellantis just announced the next Charger/Challenger cars will not be EV only. I personally hope EVERY manufacturer produces a useable EV into their production lines and are offered at competitive prices, and I hope that everyone who wants buys one. We will likely in a few years as a second vehicle, but only if it makes sense for our lifestyle and needs.

I think EV's, Hydrogen, fuel cell, battery technologies should be developed and pursued, it's why I was an early buyer of Tesla Stocks, and is a feasible option for some. But to scream the sky is falling, the climate is irreversably damaged we all have to go to EV's, ban and price/tax petroleum products to force people out is nonsense. Plus, we have cobbled ourselves to make North America dependent again on global markets and foreign oil when we could be net exporters. It is IDEOLOGICAL not Scientific, and that pisses me off, especially when our power generating capability and grid couldn't even handle a 10% of all vehicles being EV. We are at 1% now and many areas have issues, nevermind the nightmare of most EV charging stations other than Tesla.

The answer for Electrical Power generation is Nuclear Power, but the Environmental Weenies don't want that either. Solar and Wind can never produce as much. They are technologies that need and deserve development, but lifespan, manufacturing and post use disposal make these a trojan horse or waste and landfill fodder. Clean Coal, Natural Gas, Nuclear Power are where we need to focus major power generation projects, and we need to continue to work on refined fuels and cleaner running ICE vehicles.

The ICE has never been more efficient and cleaner, and will only get more so. That is a good thing. EV's are getting better and cheaper and that is a good thing. Let the Market Decide, open up our oil and gas production, and keep developing.

As for the environmental impacts, I encourage anyone seriously interested in the subject to read "Apocalypse Never" by Michael Shellenberger. He puts forth a reasonable and data based analysis and discussion. He IS an environmental weenie, but intellectually honest.

One final thought............. If America and Western Europe went Carbon ZERO tomorrow, it would not change a thing. We need to export the wackos to China, India, Russia and Africa and let them crazyglue themselves to the road...........

 

[sk47]

It is IDEOLOGICAL not Scientific,

Hello; Lots of well reasoned stuff in your post. The above quote is only one of the outstanding parts of the post.

 

[Gregs24]

The Idiocy of the EV trend is that they were initially acting as if transitioning completely to EV's was feasible or realistic. It's not, not even in highly developed urban and suburban communities.

All the talk of going completely EV is rubbish in the real world, and we are seen manufacturers come around to this reality. Most are pulling back, not just GM. Stellantis just announced the next Charger/Challenger cars will not be EV only. I personally hope EVERY manufacturer produces a useable EV into their production lines and are offered at competitive prices, and I hope that everyone who wants buys one. We will likely in a few years as a second vehicle, but only if it makes sense for our lifestyle and needs.

I think EV's, Hydrogen, fuel cell, battery technologies should be developed and pursued, it's why I was an early buyer of Tesla Stocks, and is a feasible option for some. But to scream the sky is falling, the climate is irreversably damaged we all have to go to EV's, ban and price/tax petroleum products to force people out is nonsense. Plus, we have cobbled ourselves to make North America dependent again on global markets and foreign oil when we could be net exporters. It is IDEOLOGICAL not Scientific, and that pisses me off, especially when our power generating capability and grid couldn't even handle a 10% of all vehicles being EV. We are at 1% now and many areas have issues, nevermind the nightmare of most EV charging stations other than Tesla.

The answer for Electrical Power generation is Nuclear Power, but the Environmental Weenies don't want that either. Solar and Wind can never produce as much. They are technologies that need and deserve development, but lifespan, manufacturing and post use disposal make these a trojan horse or waste and landfill fodder. Clean Coal, Natural Gas, Nuclear Power are where we need to focus major power generation projects, and we need to continue to work on refined fuels and cleaner running ICE vehicles.

The ICE has never been more efficient and cleaner, and will only get more so. That is a good thing. EV's are getting better and cheaper and that is a good thing. Let the Market Decide, open up our oil and gas production, and keep developing.

As for the environmental impacts, I encourage anyone seriously interested in the subject to read "Apocalypse Never" by Michael Shellenberger. He puts forth a reasonable and data based analysis and discussion. He IS an environmental weenie, but intellectually honest.

One final thought............. If America and Western Europe went Carbon ZERO tomorrow, it would not change a thing. We need to export the wackos to China, India, Russia and Africa and let them crazyglue themselves to the road...........

If I were you I would do some proper research on the subject rather than just believing what you want to hear.

We ARE in a climate crisis - there is plenty of evidence for this today.

car companies are NOT pulling back on EV's at all, they are investing millions

The title of this thread (that GM are pulling back on EV's) was debunked in the first few pages, GM were closing an ICE plant to invest MORE in EV production

FCEV's (hydrogen) ARE EV's with electric motors and batteries, similar to a PHEV but with a fuel stack rather than ICE engine.

Some countries are way ahead of the US in transition to largely EV's

Shellenberger is an author without the expertise to use the 'evidence' he proposes. Here is an example of how he has misquoted / misunderstood people:

In his book, Shellenberger argues that people shouldn't need to be worried about climate change causing crop failure, famine and consequent mass deaths because he believes that when it comes to food production, humans will be able to produce more food despite the effects of climate change. Shellenberger cites an editorial that is published by a group led by Eric Holt-Giménez to support his statement, however Holt-Giménez later told Snopes that Shellenberger "has either misunderstood our editorial, or is purposefully mischaracterizing our points."

There will always be somebody who will shout loudly to the contrary in order to sell a book!

'let markets decide' is the standard fall back from people who don't like being told what to do for the benefit of others. If you 'let markets decide' all that will happen is cheap subsidised oil will keep on pouring out controlled by a few companies.

Nice to see you thing everybody outside the US / Europe is a 'wacko' - nice bit of isolationism there. The why should I change if other people haven't is straight out of the primary school playground

 

[Gregs24]

Is the Caterham Project V the first of a new breed of lightweight EV sports cars? I think so.. - YouTube

 

[davanz]

Stellantis just announced the next Charger/Challenger cars will not be EV only

This would be great news to me. Bulldog9, please let us have a link or some source to document this. I am not contradicting, just would really like to know more about it.

 

[K4fxd]

https://www.drive.com.au/news/dodge-challenger-charger-six-cylinder-rumour/

Nothing official but I doubt they will let the Mustang be the only muscle car left.

 

[Gregs24]

Stellantis just announced the next Charger/Challenger cars will not be EV only

This would be great news to me. Bulldog9, please let us have a link or some source to document this. I am not contradicting, just would really like to know more about it.

Confirmed: The Next-Gen Dodge Charger Will Come With an Internal Combustion Engine Too - autoevolution

 

[sk47]

'let markets decide' is the standard fall back from people who don't like being told what to do for the benefit of others. If you 'let markets decide' all that will happen is cheap subsidised oil will keep on pouring out controlled by a few companies.

Hello; Thing is we went thru a few pages in this thread with regard to oil subsidies. Yes, the oil companies get the same sorts of things any other company can and do apply for. Oil companies, according to the linked posts, do not get favored or special monies or breaks. My take is currently the oil companies are being stalled from opening new fields as well as otherwise penalized by the alphabet agencies.

On the other hand very recently, several links have been posted showing evidence of massive subsidies for BEV's and associated companies. Perhaps you missed these lonks due to having us on ignore. Subsidized to the tune of around $50,000 per EV according to the reports when all is added in and up. Some being direct to purchasers of an EV. Many to the support outfits such as EV battery makers. These monies coming from the pockets of all taxpayers, even those who will never own an EV.

Other portions of your post can be refuted but this was so obvious and easy to refute. Not clear if you simply cannot keep up or still have several of us on ignore. Either way shows your stance for what it is. That being uninformed as well as being ideological. Having us on ignore means you miss information we may post.
Some of us will not be pushed around by self-appointed authorities. I still recall one of your comments during the Covid shot discussions. Went along the lines of we must be mandated/forced to do some things because we will not do the "right" thing on our own. With you, of course, being among those who get to make the rules. You are a known entity with little influence.

 

[Vlad Soare]

'let markets decide' is the standard fall back from people who don't like being told what to do for the benefit of others.

Being told what to do for the benefit of others is called communism. If you like that so much, then why don't you move to Cuba? You'll get plenty of opportunities there to be told what to do.

 

[kz]

Being told what to do for the benefit of others is called communism. If you like that, then move to Cuba.

Anyone that thinks market will ever decide anything in favor of people lacks fundamental understanding of today's corporate world. To the extent that it is hard to even comprehend cluelessness.

 

[Gregs24]

Being told what to do for the benefit of others is called communism. If you like that so much, then why don't you move to Cuba? You'll get plenty of opportunities there to be told what to do.

What a surprise you responded with politics - yawn

We know you don't like being told what to do, obeying laws you consider stupid, and demonstrating no consideration for others and what might be better for the majority not just yourself.

Perhaps you should live on an island alone, that way you will never have to do anything other than what you want, assuming you are prepared to put up with the sun doing what it wants.

And before you say, 'Oh I don't care what others do, hence I will do what I want', that just makes you an unpleasant inconsiderate person.

I will now go back to ignoring you again

 

[Vlad Soare]

What a surprise you responded with politics - yawn

We know you don't like being told what to do, obeying laws you consider stupid, and demonstrating no consideration for others and what might be better for the majority not just yourself.

Perhaps you should live on an island alone, that way you will never have to do anything other than what you want, assuming you are prepared to put up with the sun doing what it wants.

And before you say, 'Oh I don't care what others do, hence I will do what I want', that just makes you an unpleasant inconsiderate person.

I will now go back to ignoring you again

Oh, I so missed your personal attacks and sarcarm. Charming as always.
Isn't it ironic how the fiercest advocates of electric vehicles on this forum, and of the climate crisis, and of the governments telling us what to do, are those who don't actually own one? Put your money where your mouth is, sell your Mustang and your Lotus and buy a Tesla. The we'll talk about the merits of EVs and of saving the planet. Until then you're nothing but a hypocrite. So before throwing stones at me you may want to look into the mirror.

 

[Gregs24]

Oh, I so missed your personal attacks and sarcarm. Charming as always.
Isn't it ironic how the fiercest advocates of electric vehicles on this forum, and of the climate crisis, and of the governments telling us what to do, are those who don't actually own one? Put your money where your mouth is, sell your Mustang and your Lotus and buy a Tesla. The we'll talk about the merits of EVs and of saving the planet. Until then you're nothing but a hypocrite. So before throwing stones at me you may want to look into the mirror.

I'm not a 'fierce advocate' of EV's. But as it happens we do own a PHEV that we charge from our PV array - so mirror checked and all OK!

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