GM is pulling back on EVs

[sk47]

After the Felicity Ace debacle, Mitsui OSK Lines announced that it would no longer be transporting electric vehicles aboard its vessels.

I said this would happen. Wait till one self destructs in an under ground parking garage...........

Hello; Yes you foretold this. The champions on here have dismissed EV fires and have used the tactic of "ICE burn also". Not sure how they will dismiss this change of shipping. Might be a big blow to the agenda if the EV's are not so easy to ship by sea. Maybe only local/ in-country built.

I figure when some of us say things such as EV's are not ready for prime time, the champions think of us as backward and just not with it. The you just do not understand line that was so often thrown at us. That there is something wrong with us who point out the faults of BEV's. A major shipping line stopping the transport of BEV's is not hard to understand.

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[sk47]

Even if this miracle battery is invented, you still need a large enough power source to charge it.

Lets say a 16 charger station all 16 are fast charging this battery. What are we talking about, 1 trillion KW's of current being pulled from the grid?

Hello; I have not tried to figure the total power draw an all BEV fleet would require. Maybe a way to get at some numbers would be to convert the known use of refined oil fuels. We have a pretty good idea of how many barrels of refined oil fuels are used. We could calculate the energy equivalent and use that as a starting point to derive the amount of electric power.

One argument a car salesman tried on me recently is that the EV uses energy more efficiently than a ICE. Only true for the end users. A fully charged EV battery likely will convert a greater of stored energy to kinetic energy (motion) than a full tank of gas or diesel. The obivous problem being how the energy for the EV got onto the grid.
Example my pressure washer is electric while my brother has a gas powered one. True enough a lot of the gasoline's energy goes to heat. But somewhere miles away someone is burning coal to power my washer. I drift.

It ought to be known somewhere how much electric energy a BEV uses. We know how much energy traditional vehicles use to move around. Is my take something that can be known?

 

[Burkey]

Even if this miracle battery is invented, you still need a large enough power source to charge it.

Lets say a 16 charger station all 16 are fast charging this battery. What are we talking about, 1 trillion KW's of current being pulled from the grid?

It’s not “if” it’s ”when” or do you honestly believe that for the first time in the history of humanity, we’ve actually perfected something to the point that there’s no possibility of further improvement? Seriously? Are you THAT guy?

Improved battery efficiency doesn’t translate into higher grid loads. It just means that you can travel further on a single charge/charge less frequently.
Old battery = 500km range = 100kw/h charge once per week
New battery = 1000km range = 200kw/h charge once per fortnight
Total load to grid, zero difference.

 

[sk47]

It’s not “if” it’s ”when” or do you honestly believe that for the first time in the history of humanity, we’ve actually perfected something to the point that there’s no possibility of further improvement? Seriously? Are you THAT guy?

Improved battery efficiency doesn’t translate into higher grid loads. It just means that you can travel further on a single charge/charge less frequently.
Old battery = 500km range = 100kw/h charge once per week
New battery = 1000km range = 200kw/h charge once per fortnight
Total load to grid, zero difference.

Hello; Problems with this response. One I and others have brought up several times.

Hello;
point number two; The idea should have been to let the EV battery tech workout the best system BEFORE mandating a system for the entire world to use. At the very least some standardizing of charging ports and battery pack shapes so that new battery tech might at least "fit" the older vehicles.

I and others on here expect improvements over time with regard to green and EV tech such as batteries. That is unless federal governments around the world put their thumbs on the scales too much. That point has been made many times before. The point that the BEV ought to compete cleanly with all other transportation types. The fair competition will produce the most practical vehicles possible. As it now stands in many places authorities are dictating a more narrow path for future vehicle development.
It is not yet known for sure that Li-ion batteries, solar and wind farms are the better way to go about building a future transport and energy grid. Now these three techs are largely locked in and the momentum will soon become too massive to change direction. That momentum may already be too great to allow one of your dreamed of "Game changers" to have a place. Trillions of dollars spent to push things (tech) in a particular direction will pretty much lock in that brand of tech for a very long time.
We have had an energy and transport system which evolved to work for 100% of the population. BEV's, solar and wind farms might work well for maybe 50% of the population, yet that flawed system is being legislated into existence.

 

[K4fxd]

Total load to grid, zero difference.

That is true if you charge at home. In this country most will have to rely on a charging station. Fast chargers pull lots of power.

 

[Burkey]

That is true if you charge at home. In this country most will have to rely on a charging station. Fast chargers pull lots of power.

Yes, they pull a lot of current, for a shorter duration. Meaning, less users at any given time.
Have a think about it.

 

[sk47]

Yes, they pull a lot of current, for a shorter duration. Meaning, less users at any given time.
Have a think about it.

Hello; Currently this is the case as the saturation of BEV's is still low. The agenda you champion is for all vehicles to be EV at some point. With hundreds of millions in service there will be a constant demand for electric power at high rates.

 

[K4fxd]

Have a think about it.

You think about it.

The exit from the freeway closest to me has 5 gas stations. I haven't counted the pumps but each probably has 10. If we replace the gas pumps with fast chargers that is 50. Lets say each pulls 300 Kw's. There are many times when there is a line waiting for gas. So if each is fast charging that is 50,000 Kw's being drawn.

The exit just south of this one has 4 gas stations and a truck stop............

We will need a power generation station just to run these chargers.

 

[Burkey]

You think about it.

The exit from the freeway closest to me has 5 gas stations. I haven't counted the pumps but each probably has 10. If we replace the gas pumps with fast chargers that is 50. Lets say each pulls 300 Kw's. There are many times when there is a line waiting for gas. So if each is fast charging that is 50,000 Kw's being drawn.

The exit just south of this one has 4 gas stations and a truck stop............

We will need a power generation station just to run these chargers.

Wait…we’re talking about two different things.
I thought you were still referencing how the “new and improved” (and yet to arrive) batteries were going to increase load on the grid when compared to the existing battery technology.
Clearly that’s not the case.

 

[K4fxd]

Clearly that’s not the case.

Clearly we do not have enough generating capacity to run these chargers.

If these new fangled 200 KWH batteries are capable of being charged in 10 minuets the charger is going to have to supply 200 KWH worth of power in that 10 minuets. That will require a charging rate of 1200 Kw's or more.

No free lunch here. So instead of 10 300Kw chargers the station will need 10 1200 Kw chargers.

 

[sk47]

Wait…we’re talking about two different things.
I thought you were still referencing how the “new and improved” (and yet to arrive) batteries were going to increase load on the grid when compared to the existing battery technology.
Clearly that’s not the case.

Hello; The goal of EV makers is to approach the ICE they will replace in terms of range and quick refueling. A third goal might be even too fanciful to even think about. That being a battery pack with the energy density of gas or diesel at near the same weight.
Back to the first two. To get more range the EV will need more energy. To refuel quickly will mean the extra energy needed for more range has to be forced into the batteries ( new and improved or what we have currently)
I know some things about electricity. Not as much as K4fxd for sure. I am going to ask for clarification on something. May not be an equivalent at all. For acceleration if you want to go twice as fast you need four times as much energy. (inverse square law sort of thing) I know that to push more electrons thru a conductor causes that conductor to get warm. That heat is wasted energy. We can get around this to some degree by having a much thicker cross-section. (Thicker wire) A lower grade # 10 copper wire which is thicker can carry more current than a higher grade # 12 wire (thinner) without getting as warm.

My guess is getting battery packs to quick charge will have to require much more robust wires all around. Thicker wire to feed the power from the grid to a service station with lots of rapid chargers. The charger themselves will have to be able to deal with the large amounts of energy being pushed thru them. Maybe a launch rocket catch 22 will be a fair example. To increase the payload of the rocket takes more fuel. The extra fuel is heavy so requires even more fuel to boost that extra fuel. They clearly worked all that out, but the Saturn V's weighed over a million pounds if I recall.

My point/question is about two aspects of quick charge + high energy battery packs. Seems to me to get the range desired in just a few minutes of charging a lot of extra heat will happen while pushing all those electrons thru the various parts of the grid, the chargers and the EV battery system. That waste heat will not be free. A power generating point will have to produce enough electrons to do the actual charging and the amount which turns into waste heat. If my speculation is anywhere close to correct, then a new to be invented battery pack which can take a rapid charge of increased total energy will actually have to draw more power from the grid????

 

[K4fxd]

If my speculation is anywhere close to correct, then a new to be invented battery pack which can take a rapid charge of increased total energy will actually have to draw more power from the grid????

You can't get past physics. A battery that holds 100 KWh's of energy with zero losses needs to draw 100 Kw's of energy for 1 hour. 200 Kw's for 30 minuets will do the same thing or 600 Kw's for 10 minuets.

Now there are losses figure 10 to 20%

So if this new battery can hold 200 KWh's and has cooling and wiring to be able to charge in 10 minuets, it will need at least 1200 Kw's of energy draw.

That assumes a constant draw. Current batteries start off with a high draw and trickle off. If these new batteries also have a charge curve the starting draw might need to be 2000Kw's

 

[K4fxd]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/electric-cars-made-pollution-human-050200704.html

Electric cars are made of pollution and human misery

In general, electric cars are hailed as a key driver of net zero. But the halo starts to tarnish when you understand that electric cars are far from clean, or even ethical. How happy are you for parts of your car to come from the labour of eleven year-olds in the very unclean environs of Congolese cobalt mines? Or that disputes are erupting in South America over access to water which is needed in large quantities for production of the lithium used in batteries, but also for agriculture and human consumption?


City authorities – such as Sadiq Khan’s London Assembly – believe a pressing need to reduce urban air pollution justifies extreme measures to reduce the use of conventional cars. Not only is this a financially regressive policy, harming those least able to afford the required adjustments, it effectively moves pollution elsewhere. We can’t have dirty air in London, but dirty water in South America is just fine. And who cares about those Congolese children as long as British or American children are OK?


No comments really needed.

 

[Cory S]

Nuclear power generation is the only answer if EV’s ever become the majority. Period.

 

[K4fxd]

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/evs-running-customers-mdash-dealers-180623930.html

EVs are running out of customers — and some dealers don't want them anymore

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