Gen 2 5.2L - Does it push more HP? Truth or rumor?

[GT30fan]

I am sure both versions are excellent. However I talked to an owner DIRECETLY that had both cars at once (I went to drive his old one as a possible option). In fact i've seen people that had several of these at once over lapping, father son. I've also personally driven 3 others, all older, at dealerships. I've gotten used to mine so.... it seemed different to me. But as you say tires and other factors may be at play, but I have bought PS4. I DIGRESS ...my response was never which is better, or stronger, as you say the improvements in performance Ford posted in the 2019 and up may be tires etc but rather to say there really is a Gen 2/ Job 2. If one disagrees with people that have had both at once or traded up and we instead discuss every valve spring, no problem. In my mind it's all about driver experience and reliability anyway and it seems many that had both
newer and older seem to have the same impressions they report in common.

.....and I said I would not respond. My bad. No one steadfast is going to change their minds, this is car politics and car religion

Sponsored

 

[JAJ]

There are three generations of Coyote, each of which has more power than the last and all of which were announced with considerable fanfare by Ford. Sadly, there isn't a scrap of paper published by Ford, the experts in all this, that says there's a Gen 2 Voodoo. It's an internet fantasy.

The stories about later models with "more power" are interesting, but you have to ask whether a 2016-production Voodoo long block would drive differently than a 2020-production Voodoo if it was installed in a 2020 chassis. Not likely. There are lots of 2019/20 engines installed in 2016's and the owner's aren't raving about vastly improved muscle. I'll accept that 2020's have different calibrations than 2016's, but that's not an improved engine, it's just software. The bottom line is that, in terms of how much air the engine is capable of pumping through, nothing has changed, and that's why the torque and HP specs are right where they've always been.

 

[stanglife]

The bottom line is that, in terms of how much air the engine is capable of pumping through, nothing has changed, and that's why the torque and HP specs are right where they've always been.

That alone might not mean that the power isn't different. It could simply mean that Ford wouldn't re-rate an engine due to testing a certification requirements. I don't really have an opinion on which car makes +- 3hp, really. Just pointing out that Ford not advertising a difference also doesn't really add to either side of the theory.

 

[stanglife]

Prove it. Show some sort of data. Otherwise, it's just placebo. And as I said, I doubt Ford would be spitting out motors from the factory that fall outside their power confidence interval without changing the rating.

Slapping on Cup2's WILL give the perception that the car is stronger, but it's just a bit of gearing help (where it really needs it).

It's honestly no skin off my nuts. My car is so far departed from it's original form, I could care less. I just find the interweb full of people that WANT to believe stuff, when in fact it's just rose coloring.

I'm not even saying the later model years aren't preferable. The 500 radiator support, the swing is better, the block is "better" (although without a blower, there's no benefit to it), and some slight suspension tweaks. But the idea the motor is stronger is just fanciful. It's the same cubes, same spark, same fuel, same air.

You do realize that you are guilty of the same thinking that you accuse others of, right?

If someone doesn't provide data then it's placebo...BUT you aren't providing data, either, soooo?

Stating the the block is better only if you're supercharging it... Isn't that from your interwebz? Same concept as when people say FPC doesn't like boost?

 

[Hawkeye1]

I agree, Ford never announced there is any generations of Voodoo. I just go with the name as almost everybody use it.
My point however was not about HP. I'm interested if anybody else noticed difference between MY19 GT350 and earlier models in regards of lack of torque in low RPM. IMO Ford addressed it with ECU change. If so, MY15-18 can upgrade they ECUs as well and enjoy the car even better.

I had a 2016 version and now own a 2020 and I've had the same question. In the 2016 car I felt a distinct change in torque around 3,500 rpm. You couldn't miss it (and it was fun in a way). The 2020 feels different, and the change in torque as you increase rpm is less dramatic. Until now I wondered if I was the only one who noticed a difference...

 

[Angrey]

You do realize that you are guilty of the same thinking that you accuse others of, right?

If someone doesn't provide data then it's placebo...BUT you aren't providing data, either, soooo?

Stating the the block is better only if you're supercharging it... Isn't that from your interwebz? Same concept as when people say FPC doesn't like boost?

Except in this instance, the baseline is the motor is putting out the same power. And there's no facts to support that, just "it feels better."

The burden isn't on me to prove that the motor outputs the same power, because Ford has already claimed that. It's up to others who are convinced it makes more power to demonstrate their claim.

 

[Angrey]

Pedal commander makes a fortune convincing people (through customer testimony) that it makes the vehicle faster when all it does it change the throttle input profile and ramp in more throttle with less pedal travel. But you'll get all sorts of people who swear their vehicle now has more....more pep, more speed, more torque, etc. NOTHING has changed with the entire drivetrain or tune, but they'll swear the vehicle feels differently.

 

[stanglife]

Except in this instance, the baseline is the motor is putting out the same power. And there's no facts to support that, just "it feels better."

The burden isn't on me to prove that the motor outputs the same power, because Ford has already claimed that. It's up to others who are convinced it makes more power to demonstrate their claim.

I get it. Just saying that this wouldn't be the first time a production change resulted in more power and the fact that Ford hasn't advertised that doesn't make anyone right or wrong.

I have a 20R near Tampa, FL. Maybe a dyno day is in order?

 

[Angrey]

I get it. Just saying that this wouldn't be the first time a production change resulted in more power and the fact that Ford hasn't advertised that doesn't make anyone right or wrong.

I have a 20R near Tampa, FL. Maybe a dyno day is in order?

It would be the first one that resulted in changes that didn't change anything all of us as car enthusiasts know to increase horsepower.

Anyone with half a mechanical brain can see why/how the gen1 vs gen2 vs gen3 coyote puts out more......from increased displacement to increased compression, better intake, to direct injection, it's fairly obvious the changes are commensurate with more output.

I'll put it to you this way, is there ANYONE dumb enough to take a 2016/2017 voodoo and implement Ford's internal changes and expect it to result in more power?

If someone says "how do I make more power" would it be solid advice to tell them to follow Ford's modifications for the genII voodoo?

You're quoting increases that FORD THEMSELVES said makes more...and yet Ford themselves have said the gen1 and gen2 voodoo output are the same.

I grow tired of this argument. Frankly I don't care anymore. If a bunch of people want to believe their car makes more power, so be it. Whatevs. I'm out.

 

[JAJ]

That alone might not mean that the power isn't different.

Actually, it does. You don't get something for nothing. For a given compression ratio, the amount of energy the engine produces is determined by how much fuel it burns (efficiently) and that's determined by how much air you can pump through the engine to burn the fuel with. Look at the changes in Gen 1 through 3 of the Coyote. Different intakes, rev limits, cams, etc. If you don't change a bunch of parts, you don't move more air and you can't produce more power.

Just saying that this wouldn't be the first time a production change resulted in more power and the fact that Ford hasn't advertised that doesn't make anyone right or wrong.

The CR hasn't changed, so other than software, what production changes would have increased airflow?

 

[Hack]

Actually, it does. You don't get something for nothing. For a given compression ratio, the amount of energy the engine produces is determined by how much fuel it burns (efficiently) and that's determined by how much air you can pump through the engine to burn the fuel with. Look at the changes in Gen 1 through 3 of the Coyote. Different intakes, rev limits, cams, etc. If you don't change a bunch of parts, you don't move more air and you can't produce more power.

The CR hasn't changed, so other than software, what production changes would have increased airflow?

You can change power by changing timing and the amount of fuel going into an engine. That's what tuners do all the time. The factory tune tends to be safer, which often means less power. I doubt Ford would have changed the Voodoo tune to make it more prone to detonation or less safe, however.

It is possible that an engine block with thicker cylinder walls can make more power by holding its shape better. And it's possible a change to piston rings or a piston can seal better, which would produce more power. So theoretically I can come up with reasons why there might be a difference. However, my opinion is that if Ford found an extra 20 HP (my guess for the minimum amount of change you would need for it to be seat of the pants noticeable on a 526 HP engine) they would brag about it.

I don't think the power output has changed, because I think if Ford spent resources to increase power they would have advertised it and possibly gone with an additional MSRP increase to correspond with it. But Ford didn't advertise any power changes. All the changes were geared toward cost and or reliability, which Ford probably prefers not to talk about.

 

[stanglife]

It would be the first one that resulted in changes that didn't change anything all of us as car enthusiasts know to increase horsepower.

Anyone with half a mechanical brain can see why/how the gen1 vs gen2 vs gen3 coyote puts out more......from increased displacement to increased compression, better intake, to direct injection, it's fairly obvious the changes are commensurate with more output.

I'll put it to you this way, is there ANYONE dumb enough to take a 2016/2017 voodoo and implement Ford's internal changes and expect it to result in more power?

If someone says "how do I make more power" would it be solid advice to tell them to follow Ford's modifications for the genII voodoo?

You're quoting increases that FORD THEMSELVES said makes more...and yet Ford themselves have said the gen1 and gen2 voodoo output are the same.

I grow tired of this argument. Frankly I don't care anymore. If a bunch of people want to believe their car makes more power, so be it. Whatevs. I'm out.

You could be right - I'm just pointing out that you're basing your "facts" on the same thinking that you suggest is flawed when others apply it. You've done no research or testing but you just base it on what you think you know. Do you know that compression and volume can be increased with cam timing? Do you know that these cars have vvt? At least I can admit that I don't know what I don't know...while others get "tired" because someone doesn't ingest their hypocritical "facts".

 

[stanglife]

You can change power by changing timing and the amount of fuel going into an engine. That's what tuners do all the time. The factory tune tends to be safer, which often means less power. I doubt Ford would have changed the Voodoo tune to make it more prone to detonation or less safe, however.

It is possible that an engine block with thicker cylinder walls can make more power by holding its shape better. And it's possible a change to piston rings or a piston can seal better, which would produce more power. So theoretically I can come up with reasons why there might be a difference. However, my opinion is that if Ford found an extra 20 HP (my guess for the minimum amount of change you would need for it to be seat of the pants noticeable on a 526 HP engine) they would brag about it.

I don't think the power output has changed, because I think if Ford spent resources to increase power they would have advertised it and possibly gone with an additional MSRP increase to correspond with it. But Ford didn't advertise any power changes. All the changes were geared toward cost and or reliability, which Ford probably prefers not to talk about.

I, too kinda doubt there's measurable difference in peak power (not for the same reasons as you, though) but like you said, there are plenty of reasons the car could feel faster or have more power under the curve.

I seems logical to say that most of Fords moves would be to save money. I still suggest that a power increase, especially if it comes as a byproduct of a reliability upgrade, could easily not make it into marketing. Why spend the money to market, AND EPA test/certify everything for a short 2 year run of cars?

I still have to say - none of this is true...we are only bench racing, until some more research is completed.

 

[Hack]

I, too kinda doubt there's measurable difference in peak power (not for the same reasons as you, though) but like you said, there are plenty of reasons the car could feel faster or have more power under the curve.

I seems logical to say that most of Fords moves would be to save money. I still suggest that a power increase, especially if it comes as a byproduct of a reliability upgrade, could easily not make it into marketing. Why spend the money to market, AND EPA test/certify everything for a short 2 year run of cars?

I still have to say - none of this is true...we are only bench racing, until some more research is completed.

Good point about EPA testing. I assume if Ford changed something about how the engine works at any RPM or at any throttle position, they might have to requalify.

 

[JAJ]

You can change power by changing timing and the amount of fuel going into an engine. That's what tuners do all the time. The factory tune tends to be safer, which often means less power. I doubt Ford would have changed the Voodoo tune to make it more prone to detonation or less safe, however.

Agreed. Since 2011, pretty much all Ford ECU's have a loop in the calibration that probes the limits of safe spark advance. It's for fuel economy. It continuously moves the spark up until the knock sensor starts to hear strange noises and then backs it down just a hair. That's why you actually get more power with higher octane fuel in most Fords. I expect that Ford has decades of data on how much knock is tolerable and what isn't. Cylinder 8 seems to be the canary in that particular coal mine.

An aftermarket tuner can adjust the safety threshold upwards and get even more power, with the risk that knock will do damage. It's all a balancing act.

The other variable is cam timing. As @honeybadger has just posted, locking the cams reduces power, so Ford may have found a bit more power with different cam timing in later model years. But, as I said earlier, that's not because the engine is more powerful, it's because of software changes.

Sponsored