Frank Talk About Headers Requested

[nastang87xx]

Tuning for long tube headers on OUR cars is not required in any way shape or form. Yes you'll have a P0420 and 0430 code but that doesn't hurt anything. All those rear O2's are doing is sampling the downstream exhaust and telling the computer "good or no good". No engine parameters are changed. It's recommended that you run wideband O2 sensors so the computer can compensate for the lean condition that TYPICALLY, but not always, happens when adding long tube headers. Well the Mustang has had widebands since '11 so it can deal with this on its own. When you end up tuning a car with long tube headers and ONLY headers, you're gaining most of your power from the tune. Headers are one of those mods that still add only what they're going to add. On the GT350 they've seemed to have added 3 - 5% RWHP increases. If you had a 100% bone stock car, tuned it, and added headers, you'll end up seeing the same about 3 - 5%. It's not going to end up being 4 - 6% or 7%.

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[nastang87xx]

Not adding a tune with headers makes the whole expensive mod seem not worth the trouble.

Don't drink that kool aid that a lot of tunes have shoved in our ears.

 

[nastang87xx]

Headers and exhaust systems DO NOT add power. They FREE UP power. Your ultimate high baseline is a correctly tuned long tube header that allows for scavanging of each cylinder bank one right after the other fires. This rarely ever happens. Best example would be the factory E92 M3. It actually comes with long tube headers from the factory. Very little is had from going with an after market long tube header setup. Most of that power came from ditching the cats.

 

[autobahnGT350]

In my experience, headers alone without tune, could cause the car to smell like exhaust all the time, even with adding wide band 02’s. Can anyone verify that a header only install on the GT350 does not result in exhaust fumes permeating behind, and into our clothes? Those who have experienced this know what I am talking about. I thought it was a badge of honor to reek like rich exhaust when I added headers, but not now, with suites and wife, haha. I guess I am becoming an old fart, LOL

 

[AirBusPilot]

Don't drink that kool aid that a lot of tunes have shoved in our ears.

This statement goes against likely millions of tunes adding power, particularly when engine mods have been done, including headers. The Ford ecu doesn't have the ability to "self tune" for headers. While there are some aftermarket ecu's that now have the ability to do this, factory ecu's don't (having no reason to add this feature). Now, the factory ecu has a narrow window of self adjustment for certain conditions, changing the engine with bolt on's/in's is outside it's ability to adjust.

Sure, you can run headers without a tune, but why? The factory ecu can't adjust itself far enough to handle parameters it hasn't been programmed to handle with it's stock tune. Result is a very mild performance improvement, best case. Worst case the engine running too lean and causing damage. A aftermarket tune can adjust the timing and afr to take full advantage of the headers (and or other mods).

I'll just add the factory tunes have become so good, that adding an aftermarket tune with no other mods won't give the larger increase in power they used too.

 

[AirBusPilot]

Headers and exhaust systems DO NOT add power. They FREE UP power. Your ultimate high baseline is a correctly tuned long tube header that allows for scavanging of each cylinder bank one right after the other fires. This rarely ever happens. Best example would be the factory E92 M3. It actually comes with long tube headers from the factory. Very little is had from going with an after market long tube header setup. Most of that power came from ditching the cats.

Going to disagree again.

Adding "tuned" headers ADDS power. Why? Because the factory (in almost all cases) "header" isn't tuned. And it isn't "rare" as long as the header has been correctly designed. See American Racing Headers, they know their shit.

 

[galaxy]

As far as handling goes with a blower, I think of the incredible handling of the Camaro Zl1 1LE. The blower didn't hurt that Camaro at all. Check the handling as well.

Not a valid point. That car was built, designed, and engineered with that engine/blower as a package, just like this car was engineered, designed, and built without one. Apples and oranges. With a blower, you’re adding weight, complexity, heat, power, etc, that was not engineered as a well balanced package

 

[nastang87xx]

This statement goes against likely millions of tunes adding power, particularly when engine mods have been done, including headers. The Ford ecu doesn't have the ability to "self tune" for headers. While there are some aftermarket ecu's that now have the ability to do this, factory ecu's don't (having no reason to add this feature). Now, the factory ecu has a narrow window of self adjustment for certain conditions, changing the engine with bolt on's/in's is outside it's ability to adjust.

Sure, you can run headers without a tune, but why? The factory ecu can't adjust itself far enough to handle parameters it hasn't been programmed to handle with it's stock tune. Result is a very mild performance improvement, best case. Worst case the engine running too lean and causing damage. A aftermarket tune can adjust the timing and afr to take full advantage of the headers (and or other mods).

I'll just add the factory tunes have become so good, that adding an aftermarket tune with no other mods won't give the larger increase in power they used too.

There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know what to tackle first. Do some homework on what wideband O2 sensors are capable of as well as what the fundamental function of exhaust manifolds and headers is. You don't understand what's going on with headers. I'm trying to HELP you understand but you just keep pushing back. Do you want the reality and truth to be a more informed consumer or do you want to just listen to a pipe dream that someone who's job it is to make money wants you to believe?

And it's been proven time and time again that the GT350 has a lot on the table for tuning. 25 peak and 30 curve RWHP is not exactly a small increase. The 2018 Gen 3 Coyote? Now you are right on that one, Ford left almost nothing there without serious modification in fuel and internals. Boltons are almost useless on the Gen 3 Coyote.

 

[AirBusPilot]

There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know what to tackle first. Do some homework on what wideband O2 sensors are capable of as well as what the fundamental function of exhaust manifolds and headers is. You don't understand what's going on with headers. I'm trying to HELP you understand but you just keep pushing back. Do you want the reality and truth to be a more informed consumer or do you want to just listen to a pipe dream that someone who's job it is to make money wants you to believe?

And it's been proven time and time again that the GT350 has a lot on the table for tuning. 25 peak and 30 curve RWHP is not exactly a small increase. The 2018 Gen 3 Coyote? Now you are right on that one, Ford left almost nothing there without serious modification in fuel and internals. Boltons are almost useless on the Gen 3 Coyote.

I’ve been around hot rodding for 40 years, it’s unlikely you know more than I do about the subject.

Aside from “how much a gt350 makes stock with a tune”, what I stated above is correct. No factory ecu self tunes for aftermarket modifications. Going to the trouble of installing headers, but skipping on a tune to maximize that mod is a fools errand.

 

[Brostang]

You're right in a sense, the car isnt tuning itself, but thats where youre also wrong. The stock tune and widebands will maintain the ideal AFR even when headers are added, no lean or rich WOT. In another post i made, i linked another thread with dyno results (not my own) that show an additional 20hp with catted kooks and no aftermarket tuning. The reason an aftermarket tune isnt needed is that the stock tune and sensors are providing all of the necessary info. Here it goes:
-> New headers flow better
-> more flow out means more flow in
-> stock maf sensor knows exactly how much additional air is going in because the housing is stock, requiring no transfer function (no tuning)
-> injectors are told how much to add
-> widebands provide nearly instant feedback that combustion is maintaining the stock lambda (fraction of stoich combustion)
-> without tuning to add timing, adjust cams, or change target AFR, the car makes more power because it flows better

In conclusion:
Headers without a tune is not a fools errand, because we have widebands and a tune is not needed. O2 spacers can prevent emissions errors. Nastang is right. This is a rolling computer not a 40 year old hot rod

 

[Demonic]

I love reading these arguments while picturing you guys slamming big pints of beer down onto wooden bar tables.

 

[GreenS550]

The above comments from Brostang make a point I was attempting to make about FI. 20rwhp is fairly decent but for 1500$ not enough in my opinion. Plus if you FI you lose a pound or so of boost. Having head headers on many cars both FI and NA. The only time off so headers is in the case of SOME of the old 60s muscle cars where the factory exhaust was really bad.

 

[AirBusPilot]

You're right in a sense, the car isnt tuning itself, but thats where youre also wrong. The stock tune and widebands will maintain the ideal AFR even when headers are added, no lean or rich WOT. In another post i made, i linked another thread with dyno results (not my own) that show an additional 20hp with catted kooks and no aftermarket tuning. The reason an aftermarket tune isnt needed is that the stock tune and sensors are providing all of the necessary info. Here it goes:
-> New headers flow better
-> more flow out means more flow in
-> stock maf sensor knows exactly how much additional air is going in because the housing is stock, requiring no transfer function (no tuning)
-> injectors are told how much to add
-> widebands provide nearly instant feedback that combustion is maintaining the stock lambda (fraction of stoich combustion)
-> without tuning to add timing, adjust cams, or change target AFR, the car makes more power because it flows better

In conclusion:
Headers without a tune is not a fools errand, because we have widebands and a tune is not needed. O2 spacers can prevent emissions errors. Nastang is right. This is a rolling computer not a 40 year old hot rod

Interesting. The tuning I’ve done involved the computer sampling intake and exhaust gasses, then referring to written tables to adjust timing and AFR. The tables required rewriting (tuning) by a “tuner” who knew what to rewrite. I’m surprised to hear the stock ecu has the ability (from Ford) to adjust outside what was originally written.

Even adding an aftermarket intake system to my Z06 threw the ecu off enough that it adjusted AFR full rich to protect the engine. It only had the ability to protect the engine, but not adjust properly the AFR for the added airflow for performance gains.

 

[nastang87xx]

Interesting. The tuning I’ve done involved the computer sampling intake and exhaust gasses, then referring to written tables to adjust timing and AFR. The tables required rewriting (tuning) by a “tuner” who knew what to rewrite. I’m surprised to hear the stock ecu has the ability (from Ford) to adjust outside what was originally written.

Even adding an aftermarket intake system to my Z06 threw the ecu off enough that it adjusted AFR full rich to protect the engine. It only had the ability to protect the engine, but not adjust properly the AFR for the added airflow for performance gains.

Ford does to a point which just so happens to be enough for headers too but it definitely didn't used to be the case, I think the last Mustang to use narrowbands was the '11 GT500. Make no mistake though, if someone's a dumbass and throw on a Procharger on a Coyote or Voodoo and gun it to redline, you're gonna pop your motor because that's just WAY too lean and widebands have their native limitations too. GM has run narrowbands for so long it's not even funny. I think the C7 and the Alpha Camaro are STILL running on narrowbands. :doh:

 

[nastang87xx]

I love reading these arguments while picturing you guys slamming big pints of beer down onto wooden bar tables.

I do live in Wisconsin...that's all we do. :lol:

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