Ford Racing ProCal Tune

Discussion in 'I4 2.3L EcoBoost Engine / Mods: Bolt-ons, Exhaust,' started by TheLion, Jul 15, 2016.

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  1. TorqueMan

    TorqueMan Well-Known Member

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    #2041 TorqueMan, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
    I suspect you are confusing "sputtering" with the popping that many get during shifts. Are you experiencing any power loss? Does it occur during acceleration, or only when you let off the gas? If there's no power loss and you only get this sound when you let off the gas it's probably mild backfiring, which is harmless.



    Try this: Accelerate in 1st or 2nd gear up to the RPM where you normally would shift, then close the throttle without engaging the clutch. The car will immediately begin to slow under engine braking. If you are experiencing backfiring this will exacerbate it; the "sputtering" will become a series of pops.

    Bottom line, unless you are suffering any power loss I wouldn't worry about it. If, on the other hand, you experience power loss associated with sputtering during acceleration, then you need to troubleshoot further.

    EDIT: Listen to the exhaust in this video, particularly as the engine RPM drops after the rev:



    Is this what you're hearing?
     
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  2. Miadhawk

    Miadhawk Well-Known Member

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    Is Ford warranty OK with intercooler upgrades?
     
  3. Rob0381

    Rob0381 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think they’d be ok with them, but they would still have to prove that your aftermarket intercooler somehow caused a failure. I believe they would be hard pressed to prove something as simple as a larger cooler created or contributed to a defect, but that’s only my opinion.
     
  4. TorqueMan

    TorqueMan Well-Known Member

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    Ford will cover repair under warranty unless they determine the problem was caused by whatever mod you made. That includes the work you do. So, if Ford believes the device you installed or something you did while installing it caused a problem that needs a repair your warranty will not cover the repair.

    The law says Ford must prove the device or your work caused the problem, which seems like a good thing. But what that means in practice is that any mod gives Ford an excuse to deny a warranty claim. At that point you can either pay for the repair (so you get your car back) then sue them for the cost, or you can sue them while your car sits broken.

    It's best if you have a good relationship with whatever dealer you will use for warranty claims, and you consult them with what you're doing. It's especially good if you pay them to do the installation, then they're less likely to claim something was broken during the install.
     
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    TheLion

    TheLion Well-Known Member

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    I think this argument has been resolved already.
     
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    TheLion

    TheLion Well-Known Member

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    #2046 TheLion, Oct 13, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
    By the way, I recently decided I had enough with the crappy fitment of the GT350 CAI and decided to go with a CARB approved aftermarket intake that is stock tune compatible (meaning it doesn't affect the flow measurements).

    I went with AirAid and I was very surprised. I mostly expected to resolve fitment issues and the sucking up hot air in stop and go traffic (due to poor seal against the hood), but I did not realize how restrictive the stock intake tube is.

    The AirAid tube is much larger and only necks down right before the tubo inlet. It was like adding an inter cooler all over again in terms of how much the part throttle response opened up. The intake just flows so much better. It also helped with the top end fade, I'd estimate I'm pushing another 10 to 20 hp at 6500 RPM, so I'm down a little less than before due to the better flow. The stock intake system is extremely restrictive and I think that's why the stock engine feels so darn lazy, something every single reviewer noticed about a bone stock EB. An inter cooler and properly designed intake even on the stock tune would make the car far more fun to drive and maximize even the stock tuning.

    Also, garrett released their stock location inter cooler upgrade, it's pricey but for anyone wanting to keep their AGS and for those with emissions, it's CARB approved.
    The combination of the garrett core FMIC, AirAid and Ford Performance tune is welll, darn impressive and keeps the car fully road legal even in California.

    Given that garrett / honeywell actually designed the turbo for the 2.3L Ecoboost engine, I'd imagine they can create a very optimally sized FMIC. I spoke to the mechanical engineer who was working on the project, no joke. It was the first time I took the stang in for dyno run with the Levels FMIC, he noticed it was an ecoboost and started telling me he worked for garrett / honeywell and they were just about to release a new inter cooler.

    He noted that the car picked up substantial power even bone stock otherwise because the factory inter cooler was so poorly designed. You would be very hard pressed to have any warranty issues with a CARB approved inter cooler designed by the company who designed the actual turbo for Ford's 2.3L ecoboost if your concerned about such things.

    Also the AirAid is CARB approved as well. Why does CARB matter? Because it's a strict certification process that insures the part does not negatively affect emissions output, which implies it MUST be compatible with the otherwise stock engine operation.

    Yes I'm running the ATM, no it's not CARB, i'm not in a carb state, but do have e-check, so as long as the part doesn't push emissions to far out of bounds, CAI's, exhaust etc. don't really affect it as its only the OBD plug in type that looks to see that no engine codes are generated and the ECU stays it's ok. They don't measure actual tail pipe output so you can get away with minor changes you can't in california or other more tightly controlled emissions states. Some county's here don't even have e-check, but sadly mine does.

    https://www.maperformance.com/products/atp-garrett-carb-legal-intercooler-600hp-2015-ford-mustang-ecoboost-atp-m23-020?variant=44448833795&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIoNm0_tvt1gIVGnZeCh2ElAxHEAQYASABEgIT9fD_BwE

    If you don't want to go with a full sized unit like the ATM, i would highly recommend the Garrett core even over the CP-e, although CP-e is very good as well and it is cheaper, but not CARB approved, so for some people that may matter.

    Here's my recomended hardware mod list:

    1. Revision B or newer of the Ford Performance calibration.
    2. Garrett, CP-e or ATM inter cooler (depending on price and application)
    3. AirAid intake with synthamax filter, stay away from the oiled cotton one for street use.
    4. NGK 6510 or Ford OE SP537 spark plugs (both gaped to 0.028~0.030")

    Those modifications working in concert with one another make a very dramatic difference in engine performance and are safe for use with the Ford Performance tune and warranty.

    If you want to save a little, you could adapt the air aid intake tube itself to the FP GT350 CAI, but you would need to modify it to get it to work as it's a bit longer than the stock one if I'm not mistaken.

    Other mods you can would be gearing changes and cooling system upgrades such as a thermostatic oil cooler if you intend to track the car and want to maximize performance and reliability.

    Also don't forget to switch over to a GM Dexos 1 Gen 2 certified oil, they are no hitting the store shelves, Valvoline Synpower is now out with their new Gen 2 certified formula and also meets GM 4719 spec for corvette engines, $25 for five quarts and Ford's spec for 5W-30 so they could never claim the oil caused any issues.

    Any synthetic from a name brand is good enough if it's Gen 2 certified, it's a very stringent test, much more than the existing ILSAC-5. ILSAC-6 isn't due out til 2018~2019 which should be similar to Dexos 1 Gen 2.

    Lastly, for anyone wanting to upgrade their charge pipes, ATM's silicone charge pipes can be used with any of the above inter coolers and fitment is bar none the best. It provides the most reliable connection available. The combination of silicone piping and constant tension clamps is unbeatable and easier to install than hard pipes. The flow path is also the most optimal, given that the entire pipe is flexible. Has a nice gradual taper as well, similar to stock but without the unnecessary pressure drop inducing extra bends. Not mention they are cheaper than any other pipe option out there, under $300. Dave at ATM informed me the first batch of recirculating adapters are now on their way, so for those of us who want to keep re-circulation like stock, we can now use the ATM charge pipes. He said they were shipping to him this week, so PM Dave if your interested in the recirc option.
     
  7. Ebm

    Ebm Well-Known Member

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    I'm still not fully convinced that the stock intake is that restrictive. For the size of the engine and the relatively small turbo, I would think the stock intake would be adequate. Most aftermarket air intakes are hot air intakes. The factory intake is a true cold air intake. I'm skeptical that the aftermarket intake adds any power at all. It sounds like you judged the intake based on seat of your pants feel. That can be very deceiving.

    On another note, I see you run PilotSport AS3+s as well. I just got some put on my car a few days ago. Haven't tested them yet, I want to let them "break in" for a few days first. Do you like your Michelin's so far? Are they grippy on the American Stallion? Have you hanged 10 yet? :D

    One last thing. You mention the Dexos label. Do you think most, if not all, Dexos gen 1 oils will be certified for gen 2?
     
  8. justusdude

    justusdude Member

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    I mean, the GT uses the same intake as the Ecoboost so it should be fine as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure the Airaid intake+tube is that much better but it probably doesn't amount to much.
     
  9. tw557

    tw557 Well-Known Member

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    I was taught in fluid flow and more so when I was studying Ram air theory when I was road racing, Air flow does not like abrupt flow area changes. The best ram air is a constant dia tube pointing directly into the air flow. Any taper causes a friction and turbulance at the transition. As pointed out to me, oil will always flow faster if you can hit the hole straight from the container. Fill up the funnel and it flows slower. So I have always assumed the stock air tube is actually the best design with a slowly tapering design. Same way velosity stacks are much the same dia. as the Carb or throttle body on race engines.
     
  10. tw557

    tw557 Well-Known Member

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    Also, My car came with a MAP intake on with the large tube design. I got tired of the blow off noise and bought the stock air box. I did not feel any difference but I am not tuned. I do have an intercooler since I have owned the car and it must help since I really am pretty content with the consistent performance. I have always liked the roll on power at lower RPM's even compared to the stock GT's.
     
  11. OP
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    TheLion

    TheLion Well-Known Member

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    Try the intake then make your comments against it. There's a reason Tune+ recommended spending $150 on the just the intake tube from AirAid.

    There are other advantages to the air box and after market filter. While the filter is capable of flowing much more air than the stock turbo / engine can consume, it's dust capacity is significantly higher. You'll be in the optimal flow range for a markedly longer period of time before needing to clean the filter due to restrictions.

    The stock air box does just fine in terms of keeping hot air out. No argument there. However just like electron flow, you get a skin effect, where the drag against the walls of the intake tubing inhibit flow, air density is typically greater on the outer edges.

    The GT intake tube is huge compared to the ecoboost intake tube even though the air box is the same. In fact it's about the same size as the AirAid intake tube.

    Larger diameter tubes simply have more total surface area around their circumference, so if your flowing the same amount of air, it's less restrictive given the same level of vacuum is applied. In our case, because the engine is a feedback system, lowering the restriction on the intake lowers turbine back pressure = more power.

    I am by no means suggesting one must do any of these mods, however they work surprisingly well together. For the price, it's not a bad investment. Especially since with the GT350 CAI, you need to invest another $75 just to get a reusable filter unless you want to pay $20 and special order a GT350 paper filter every couple months.

    Simply put, all of the intake system modifications reduce restrictions. Not sure why it's so hard to believe it was intentionally restrictive, that's like saying the stock tune is plenty power full when we know the engine can safely push quite a bit more power.

    The car feels very lazy bone stock and produces very inconsistent performance, you can fix the lazy response and inconsistency with a combination of inter cooler and intake. The Ford P. tune is the power adder, but you can't maximize power without proper flow. Yes, your going to be flowing significantly more air as the Ford tune will push up to 25 PSI boost. I typically see around 21 to 23 PSI across the RPM band. Stock it was 18. That's a 22% increase in volume (and hence flow) on an intake system that already chokes out a factory tuned car. It's all about selling GT's man. That's the big money maker, while they certainly are profiting from the ecoboost, the magins are smaller than on the GT.

    A GT still has a place, but there would be a significant drop in GT sales if ecoboost mustangs came from the factory Ford P. tuned with a good inter cooler and less restrictive intake system pushing 360 crank HP and 400 crank torque like mine. Heck, why do you think they don't even offer an ecoboost with a Torsen diff from the factory? PP Ecoboosts don't have a torsen, just the standard line lock. They also don't offer a 3.73 gearing either. That's what Ford P. ran in their test car when they were developing their race gas tune.

    Yall can do what ever you want, but I can tell you after putting 32k miles on the car since June of 2016, I am very familiar with how the car responds. I don't know if it's making any more PEAK power. I never suggested that, it may now. What I said is that part throttle response is drastically improved as well as the fade at the top end. The fade is less severe than it used to be. Yes you can tell by the seat of your pants when the gains are around 10 to 15 hp or greater. Gains smaller than that are too hard to discern "seat of the pants".
     
  12. tw557

    tw557 Well-Known Member

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    I realize a more free flowing system does make the turbo more efficient but it truly will not allow more boost pressure. Its not like a normally aspirated car where free flowing is where its all at. It can only suck air in so quick. But with a turbo it can almost always push more pressure in but he PCM holds the pressure right were it wants it. Theoritcally we could put on a huge turbo but the PCM will still only let 18 LBS of boost. And as far as I can tell, boost pressure at the manafold is pretty much what its all about concerning power other then heat and spark and fuel.
     
  13. OP
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    TheLion

    TheLion Well-Known Member

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    In the case of a vacuum source drawing in air, the benefits of a lower restriction larger intake tube out weight the small pressure drop incurred by the change in diameter.

    More gradual taper is only beneficial to a point depending on the tube length. If the taper runs the entire length of tubing, as it does stock, the total drag is higher and becomes the more dominating factor in resistance to flow.

    It's a balancing act, just like inter coolers. Lower pressure drop typically equals higher flow rates, however too high flow rates and the air won't have time to transfer thermal energy, hence cooling capability is lost. One must balancing pressure drop (aka dwell time) with cooling capacity.

    All intake tubes must taper to the size of the turbo inlet side. A tube like the stock tube with a long, gradual taper has a significantly lower internal volume and hence a much lower surface area, where the majority of air motion occurs, even though it's turbo inlet side is the same as other intake tubes.

    The stock tube is purposefully restrictive just like the stock inter cooler is purposefully un-optimal. But don't take my word for it...
     
  14. OP
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    TheLion

    TheLion Well-Known Member

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    There's a lot more to it than that. Your completely forgetting this is a feedback system. Higher turbo pressure = high back pressure on the exhaust, which has a negative effect on power output of the engine. At some point you reach diminishing returns as the losses due to back pressure become greater than the gains due to compression (compression efficiency falls off rapidly after certain RPM range).

    If you can't exhaust the burned mixture, you dilute the fresh mix and increase total heat. If you run the same boost, but lower the back pressure on the exhaust by allowing the compressor to more efficiently drawing in fresh air (aka lower intake restriction), you will make more power at the same boost.

    This is the EXACT same concept behind larger down pipes. Only your reducing back pressure on the exhaust side rather than the intake side.

    Put a cap over your tubo compressor inlet and see how well your car runs...not sure why people think turbos are magic, the turbo uses vacuum to draw in air and compresses it on the other side.

    The air is then compressed even further via the pistons. NA engines draw in fresh air via vacuum as well but only compress via the pistons. Two stage vs. single stage intake. Both use vacuum. Larger diameter tubes flow better at higher RPM's as the flow rate increases (more compression cycles in the same time period = greater flow rates). That's common knowledge on NA motors, same for turbo cars.

    I have no idea where this idea came from that turbos are insensitive to intake restrictions, but it's the dumbest idea to permeate the forums...:doh:. I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but I think we should consider what I'm proposing. Tune+ certainly agrees on the intake tube, that's one of the upgrades he promoted with the stock air box. But for me, there were other benefits beyond the intake tube, such as higher dust capacity = more consistent performance over the same service interval or longer service intervals as well as sealing off the intake (which the GT350 air bucket does not do well at all). It was just a more integrated solution. But your welcome to do what you want. My recommendation stays. Nobody has to follow it if they don't want to.
     
  15. tw557

    tw557 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure a turbo is sensative to intake restriction but the question is, are our intakes restrictive with a stock tune? If you simply hook up a tuner and tell the Turbo I now want 25lbs of boost and it can hold that boost then I would think the intake is not restrictive with the stock tune. Believe me I so hoped that bolt ons would add power to our cars since I can't justify the CPO warranty going in the wind. My car was bought used CPO with a downpipe, full cat back exhaust, and MAP intake and intercooler. Ford confirmed to me it was a ford factory tune though. I have since replaced all those parts back to stock other then the intercooler. With a few 1/4 mile runs and many 0-60 runs. I see zero performance difference. Personally it seems a a little faster and certainly smoother stock.
     
  16. Juben

    Juben Well-Known Member

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    The stock intake is good until you start getting into the higher horsepower levels.
     
  17. Miami EB

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    Thanks for all the info! Which filter is a good replacement for the GT350 filter? I just installed mine this morning but I want to know what to order to have ready for when it needs to be swapped. The GT350 filter barely fits in there as it is. Thanks!
     
  18. Rick B

    Rick B Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I understang about the fuel trim. But that resets rather quickly. I believe that your not to taking account the adaptive learning process. Resetting the KAM and driving it "briskly" eliminates the gradual learning process.
     
  19. OP
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    TheLion

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    I'm not suggesting any intake is optimal. The MAP intake is nothing like the AirAid or other similar closed box types. It's a fender well CAI and those are only intended for pure race applications at higher constant speeds, in particular track applications. There's no ram air effect as there's no air box. My AirAid is hooked up the stock intake ducting, but with the Velossatek ram air duct and modified GT grille, under speed it will add a couple pounds of pressure in the air box, at lower speeds it allows cool air from outside engine bay to be drawn in, also there are aspiration ports in case you need a bit better flow. It's a very well optimized flow system.

    Even for drag racing fender well CAI's are not optimal. Your going to be sucking hot air off the line which reduces turbo compressor efficiency and loads the inter cooler more.

    Tune+ did some testing with fender well CAI's and found usually you actually loose power, not every intake is the same and some may actually hurt performance, especially in the wrong applications. The MAP intake tube is quite different in shape, diameter, taper and length than the AirAid as well.

    An aftermarket down pipe with the Ford Tune? That makes no sense, what were they thinking :doh:. The Ford tune is designed for the stock down pipe and back pressure. Changing that could certainly have unintended consequences.

    Regarding warranty and inter coolers and intakes, as far as Ford P. is concerned, cooling system upgrades are not an issue. Changing the down pipe, waste gate, turbo etc. would be however. Cat back exhausts are fine as well, especially if you use Ford P's own offerings, however most of their benefits are limited with weight savings and sound, not so much power, maybe a couple ponies at most due to loosing the "brief case".

    MAYBE, just maybe I might get the car up on the dyno one last time after Dave ships me the recirc fitting for the turbo side charge pipe. At least I would be able to see if there are any measurable differences from the combination of intake, plugs and charge pipes changes since the last time. Same car, same dyno, same inter cooler and same tune, SAE corrected results should give us a pretty fair comparison. But I'm pretty much done with the car as is, in fact I'm going to stick with the Ford tune and save the Livernois for when I do a built bottom end once I reach 150k miles and I've gotten my daily use out of the stock block...or maybe I'll just go with the new 460 HP 5.0 and 10 spd auto or even better, the Aluminator 5.2L Voodoo, 580 HP on that beautiful flat plane crank V8 :D. That would be an awesome project car engine, already got the chassis and drive train.
     
  20. tw557

    tw557 Well-Known Member

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    If you would get some dyno results some time it would be interesting to see if any improvements. It's always fun to theorize the expected gains from changes but actual data results tell the story. The only thing is dyno results for me just dont tell the whole story for roadracing or more importantly street driving such as roll on and part throttle results.
    I don't even have the Ford Racing tune. I have a completely stock car other then a MAP intercooler. My car believe it or not came CPO with CAI, catted downpipe and full exhaust. I'm sure it was tuned at one point. The dealer confirmed they changed a coil and reflashed the car at that time a week before I bought it. I then proceeded to put the car back to stock and it seem to run better every step I took which I'm sure was being stock tune. I planned on getting the FRPP tune and even have an email stating that if he motor blows at 80000 miles my CPO warrenty would still be intact from my dealer, but with this intercooler, I am actually pretty happy with the low/mid range torque. It still impresses me withthe roll on power.
    I planned on trading for a GT this past summer. I sold my motorcycles and the money from selling these performance Ecoboost parts I was pretty close to the gap of the price of a GT. I have a premium and to get into a premium GT was at least 10-12 grand more. I figured oh well, once the test drive is over I won't care to spend the extra. With spending this much over the Eco I wanted to keep the GT stock to keep the warranty since the replacement cost of a coyote is PLENTY! Then I was shocked. I ended up driving 5 different gt's. Stick and automatic. I wanted to stick with an Automatic. I really was disappointed with the low end daily driving power. My last couple cars were turbo's and think I've grown to like that roll on power of forced induction. Sure it was fun Reving from 4000 to red line, but not something that is easy to do in my driving area. I always get my butt handed to me when I make these comments and I'm told to just push the pedal to the floor and rev it to the moon,but thats just not what I like to do daily. So I went and bought a pretty heavily Modded 05 GT for less then the cost to trade up the the GT. This is the beat on it car and feel as strong at the new stock GT. But my future plan is to get a 15 on GT in a few years and I would love the supercharger. Time will tell. Of like you mention, implant one in the ecoboost!
     
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