First HPDE - Oh Nooo

[M3Convert]

Ignorant question, how long is a track season or how many track sessions is that over what time period?

9 days for me, 12 months daily driving.

The point is that Castrol SRF has a very high wet BP, so it gets less adversely affected over time, rather than use.

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[M3Convert]

OK, I feel like a tool for using TC my first day breaking in.

Can I blame the salesperson? Never got the memo that I shouldn't track with traction control on. :frusty:

Anyway, going back to the course this weekend - changing all fluids next week. I am not driving the car hard, in fact I would think the 15 min x4 sessions at 8/10ths are perhaps the ideal break-in activity after the 400 highway and 250 city miles.
The dealer also mentioned that they utilize magnets so metal dust/microshavings should hopefully not be a rampant problem even in the first fluid.

Obviously, I subscribe to the school of thought that you can break the whip in fast and somewhat harshly.

I don't think you did anything wrong. It's your car and you drive it the way you like and enjoy your time doing it. No one on the forum is going to pay to fix it. It is a good back-up plan while learning to drive, both yourself and learning the car. There will be a point when you feel the car is holding you back because it anticipates you are going to be out of control. I used the "track" MDM TC setting on my M3 for 4 years until I felt truly comfortable. At the end of the day, it was eating my front pads, so I took it off.

EDIT: My comment was regarding the unusual heating of the axle and wondering if it was a TC thing as the diff fights the brakes to rotate the wheel when the wheel speed is being modulated by the electronics.

 

[M3Convert]

If you go and read the Mustang Owner's Manual it says to change all the fluids in the car after the first HOUR of track driving and then it recommends a specific interval after that depending on the number of track days.

As for the comments about 650 miles not being enough to "break in" the rear diff or the engine, or the transmission... I call BS... the rear diff is working A LOT in just street driving, same with the transmission and the motor. The last axle builder I talked to when I was driving my 2009 said 50 miles for the rear diff and gears to wear into each other, transmissions are about the same. The first 50 miles are the most critical.

As for the engine, Ford did it for you when they test ran the motor, Ford did it when they drove it off the assembly line, onto the truck and then your dealer drove it off the truck. If that didn't do it, then the drive home from the dealership most likely did.

Anyway, go read the owner's manual and perform the intervals it is saying you should. I'd also recommend not running with TC/ESC on... but that's just me. If you don't trust yourself to drive the car at the edge (which, for an HPDE isn't really necessary) then back the speed down until you feel comfortable running faster.

I was just taking my lead from my old M3. I am betting the 29K lump [and drivetrain] in an M3 is built to a tighter specs than the 7K lump in a Mustang, so figured I'd take the same precautions in the first thousand miles. (I think they even tell you not to rev it over 4500K rpm for the first 2500 miles or something! Unfortunately, there are many M3s that only get revv'd that high once or twice a month at cars and coffee. F**king tragic!)
My car, my rules! :cheers:

 

[Zemedici]

OK, I feel like a tool for using TC my first day breaking in.

Can I blame the salesperson? Never got the memo that I shouldn't track with traction control on. :frusty:

Anyway, going back to the course this weekend - changing all fluids next week. I am not driving the car hard, in fact I would think the 15 min x4 sessions at 8/10ths are perhaps the ideal break-in activity after the 400 highway and 250 city miles.
The dealer also mentioned that they utilize magnets so metal dust/microshavings should hopefully not be a rampant problem even in the first fluid.

Obviously, I subscribe to the school of thought that you can break the whip in fast and somewhat harshly.

You're alright buddy, and to be honest I bet the salesperson wouldn't know either. Just turn it off next time you go out, and tear it up! :cheers:

That's what we're here for, to help each other out.

 

[Optimum Performance]

OK, I feel like a tool for using TC my first day breaking in.

Can I blame the salesperson? Never got the memo that I shouldn't track with traction control on. :frusty:

Anyway, going back to the course this weekend - changing all fluids next week. I am not driving the car hard, in fact I would think the 15 min x4 sessions at 8/10ths are perhaps the ideal break-in activity after the 400 highway and 250 city miles.
The dealer also mentioned that they utilize magnets so metal dust/microshavings should hopefully not be a rampant problem even in the first fluid.

Obviously, I subscribe to the school of thought that you can break the whip in fast and somewhat harshly.

There is a distinct difference between "Leaving the traction control on" and running Sport or Track Mode. Please do not wreck your car, someone else or yourself because the internet says to shut everything off.

At tracks I was comfortable with and overdriving the car to get a lap time, Sport Mode was a second at lap on a 1.7 mile course.

If you are not familiar with a track or the car and do not have the ability, run in sport or track mode. A great training tool is to not have it kick in, that means the the car is being driven smoothly.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Norm, in your experience, how often should fluid be changed?

For example my Mustang is my DD and I plan to do 1-2 track days every 1.5-2 months and use Motul RBF 600.

I bleed out just under half a liter of fluid (RBF600) prior to each event. Meaning that by about every third event essentially all of the fluid has been changed. Timewise, that could be anywhere from under a month to over a year.

FWIW, I can get both days of a two day event without bleeding in between, but I suspect being simultaneously power and gearing limited to mid-120's peak speed on the tracks that I've run has something to do with that, or that it at least offsets the fact that to date I'm still running the little 12.4" front brakes (not for much longer, though).


Norm

 

[GT_Roadcourse_Newb]

I will let you all know (ideally with pictures) how the fluids all look next week after this weekend's HPDE.

Should be worth a data point at least; what the original factory stock fluids look like after 1500 miles and 2 to 3 easy track days.

Im very easy on the brakes generally so Im not worried about that.

 

[Whiskey11]

There is a distinct difference between "Leaving the traction control on" and running Sport or Track Mode. Please do not wreck your car, someone else or yourself because the internet says to shut everything off.

At tracks I was comfortable with and overdriving the car to get a lap time, Sport Mode was a second at lap on a 1.7 mile course.

If you are not familiar with a track or the car and do not have the ability, run in sport or track mode. A great training tool is to not have it kick in, that means the the car is being driven smoothly.

If TC isn't kicking in then turning it all off would not in anyway affect the driving of the car. Again, if you are NOT comfortable with the track then don't try and drive it at 8+/10th's prior to knowing the track. And no, video games don't count.

The problem with TC/ESC is that it isn't consistent in it's application. You can do things exactly the same twice and one time you'll get activation and the other you wont. The other problem is that no matter what you do, you will never learn how the car behaves at the limit which means you'll never learn how to correct the car's behavior correctly. You wont learn that when the back end steps out you shouldn't step on the brakes, you wont learn that when the front end plows, more brakes wont help the situation. These are things you need to learn when you are focusing on learning to drive the car, not after you've developed driving habits that require their use. See: Douchebag Corvette driver who thought he was fast until he wrecked said $75,000 Corvette when he turned everything off finally.

If you don't feel comfortable turning it all off, then have the courage and desire to improve to request being put into a lower run group so you can run at 5/10 until you ARE comfortable with everything and can advance. That's how HPDE is supposed to work.

If you are LEGITIMATELY scared of the car then go autocross it where the speeds are much lower and the risk is far lower.

 

[GT_Roadcourse_Newb]

If TC isn't kicking in then turning it all off would not in anyway affect the driving of the car. Again, if you are NOT comfortable with the track then don't try and drive it at 8+/10th's prior to knowing the track. And no, video games don't count.

The problem with TC/ESC is that it isn't consistent in it's application. You can do things exactly the same twice and one time you'll get activation and the other you wont. The other problem is that no matter what you do, you will never learn how the car behaves at the limit which means you'll never learn how to correct the car's behavior correctly. You wont learn that when the back end steps out you shouldn't step on the brakes, you wont learn that when the front end plows, more brakes wont help the situation. These are things you need to learn when you are focusing on learning to drive the car, not after you've developed driving habits that require their use. See: Douchebag Corvette driver who thought he was fast until he wrecked said $75,000 Corvette when he turned everything off finally.

If you don't feel comfortable turning it all off, then have the courage and desire to improve to request being put into a lower run group so you can run at 5/10 until you ARE comfortable with everything and can advance. That's how HPDE is supposed to work.

If you are LEGITIMATELY scared of the car then go autocross it where the speeds are much lower and the risk is far lower.

Totally agreed. I should probably mention that I'm a noob all things Mustang GT, but not to HPDE, Ive done 40+ days in a couple different cars. Tracks are all quite familiar but I am hoping to see a new track now and again. (Did Reno ever work out?)

Ive stepped down to HPDE 3 this weekend so I can go 8/10 with minimal assists and not slow people down, but I have a feeling I will be faster than last time.

I will not be turning everything off (e.g. advancetrac off via holding traction control for 5 sec) until maybe Autocross.

 

[CoastHighway]

John,
You seemed to adapt to the mustang pretty quickly. Your cars "evil twin" now has 7 track days on it. My first mod will probably be camber plates and a good alignment.

Ted

 

[GT_Roadcourse_Newb]

John,
You seemed to adapt to the mustang pretty quickly. Your cars "evil twin" now has 7 track days on it. My first mod will probably be camber plates and a good alignment.

Ted

Ted!! Great to see you on the forums!

Thank you for the compliment. I was lucky enough to have a quality lead follow session first day, thats good luck. Evil twin for the win!

Hope to see you May 6th [MENTION=11642]Mazda[/MENTION]!
-John

 

[Norm Peterson]

If TC isn't kicking in then turning it all off would not in anyway affect the driving of the car.

I think what Tom is getting at is whether any given driver can pick up the pace without getting any of the nannies interested enough in the proceedings to start doing anything. Stability control systems use more than just lateral g's - I think the requirement is tied to yaw rate or possibly yaw acceleration, with the threshold still within what some typical driver can still manage without assistance. A smooth driver can do this far better.

I know what you're saying about ultimately having to know how your car will behave, and as the resident old fart I have a lot of trouble understanding how people interested in track driving might not have developed enough discipline to sneak up on their limits as opposed to blowing clear through them. Don't people get any sense of things like slip angles or incipient wheelspin any more?

And no, video games don't count.

Damn good thing they don't. There wouldn't be an HPDE organization on the planet that would let me run on the track at any level if they watched me attempt a video simulation beforehand, and the state might consider revoking my driver's license. I'm not joking.


Norm

 

[cop on my back]

I think just about every performance driving instructor will tell you to turn off the babysitters. No TC, Advance Trac, all that shit. The driver needs to drive the car and have full control and natural feedback from the car. I've always done that for many years, no issues.

There is no other way to truly learn your vehicle IMHO.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The problem these days is that way too many drivers either don't ever drive anywhere near where the nannies would do anything to begin with, or they've learned to be the 'stomp, stab, & steer" sort of driver who needs them.

I would guess that "many years" doesn't apply to most such drivers, certainly as far as driving even remotely similar to track driving line or intensity is concerned.


Hooked on Driving is pretty insistent on leaving the nannies on, at least for Group A drivers. But as far as I know, they don't talk about having to leave them "full on".


Norm

 

[GT_Roadcourse_Newb]

I think just about every performance driving instructor will tell you to turn off the babysitters. No TC, Advance Trac, all that shit. The driver needs to drive the car and have full control and natural feedback from the car. I've always done that for many years, no issues.

There is no other way to truly learn your vehicle IMHO.

The thought just occurred that I will probably end up driving the car in the mode that results in the fastest laps without sacrificing safety to a degree that cannot be countered.

So I wonder if driving with Advance Trac off allows faster times generally...
I want to try the car out in all its facets, but I suppose I want to innately know how it will behave in the optimum setting laptime-wise, so, sooner than later I should start driving in the optimum setting(s). Any consensus on whether AdvanceTrac ON vs. OFF allows uh..MOST drivers... All drivers? the faster laptimes? (ha, I know... I'm sure this can be debated)

I hope this makes sense, coffee still not 100% working.

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