Engine Comes Apart

[5.0yote]

Sounds like your car is just trying to adjust to the octane of the gas you just used.

That was my thought process as well, as the octane learn ratio changes when you are close to E and get new gas, I have had instances where while watching that PID on my AP it would go from 1.0 to .81 on a new tank, I would then watch it carefully for knock because you never know when you get a bad batch of fuel, this happened this past summer when I was at the dyno, I happen to the day before fill up at a station I never go to but it was on my way to a destination.

The end result was my ration sat at .98 for 200 miles, I ended up having knock and timing being pulled greatly and lost like 50HP/45TQ on my pulls. I had to blow threw that batch driving extremely mildly which took over a week.

During that learned period your ECU is constantly making timing changes to make up the difference and not detonate your block.

Very good point.

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[Blyman93]

I have a stock Ecoboost and mine has rough idle after I fill the tank up as well!

Sometimes it goes down to ~700 RPM, vibrates a little - but it gets better a few seconds later. Is this what you guys are describing? I almost always have this after I fill up all the way.

I was thinking it was the fuel pump.

I had the exact same thing. Happened randomly, only has my last tuner been able to correct this. No changes in idle on tune, but for whatever reason that has stopped. Have gotten gas from shell as well as chevron and everything is good. I drive my car like an Indy car all the time, have 13500 miles. Good to go!

 

[Maggneto]

From what I have seen over time all the engines break at light throttle, so we can assume 10 - 30 % pedal given by the driver. To make the car feel peppy the tuner adds boost and timing at low engine speed. If the tune was only given boost and timing under WOT, it would still feel stock at light throttle, and the customers might be disappointed. Every tuner is gonna be different, some might add more timing and boost and allow the throttle body to open more at light pedal, some might be more conservative and know that by being aggressive your asking for the engine to knock. The tune at WOT is much simpler to build then actual driving conditions, and in real world driving conditions is where these engines are breaking.
It amazes me what can be done via the factory PCM. I had one tune that was to aggressive for my liking ( I drive like a grandpa unless actually racing ) , it was way to snappy just driving the car around, and at the track on the burnout, I could not control the RPM, it was to easy to hit the rev limiter. I told Jon what I felt and boom, he sent a tune that was less aggressive at light throttle, but still an animal at WOT. My whole point above goes back to knock, it all comes down to having to aggressive of a tune for the given octane. The tune may not knock at WOT, but is knocking in other throttle positions, and we all know the end result.

Thanks for the insight. This would explain why some tuners are randomly popping engines while others are not. Some just have better safeguards built into the tune to account for the occasional bad gas (low octane) scenario. I wonder how many popped engines were on 93 tune vs. 91 tune. If bad gas is indeed a contributing factor wouldn't a 91 tune handle that situation slightly better than a 93 tune?

 

[arghx7]

OEM tune is safe with whatever shit gas you put in it no matter where you live. OEM is safest tune; it's designed for customers who don't pay attention to fuel quality. Ford runs these engines for hundreds of hours at peak power in a lab to test that it is safe.

I run on a 91 octane tune stage 1 tune on actual 93 gas, early build 2015 engine. No problems in 36k miles, have had the tune since about 15k. Manual trans.

 

[Joemomma22]

to the OP, i'm wondering if you notice any sluggishness in your new 17 engine. My 17 engine stock is lightyears slower than my 15's stock engine. My 15 came on boost much sooner even before it had any modifications made. The 17 engine replacement seems to only make 18-20psi at 4800+rpm. its awful.

 

[perfweld]

Thanks for the insight. This would explain why some tuners are randomly popping engines while others are not. Some just have better safeguards built into the tune to account for the occasional bad gas (low octane) scenario. I wonder how many popped engines were on 93 tune vs. 91 tune. If bad gas is indeed a contributing factor wouldn't a 91 tune handle that situation slightly better than a 93 tune?

Its a total catch 22 for a tuner trying to make the tune feel peppy on 91 or 93 octane fuel, trying to move 3700 lbs with a 2.3L takes a lot of Torque to make it feel snappy, so boost and timing are added at low RPM. If said tuner dosent add boost and timing down low, the customer thinks his tune isn't that great cause his buddy's car feels much faster. The tuner that does not put the tune on the edge is really the one doing the customer the favor, though his car might not have as much snap as his buddy's car at low RPM, he can be more confident that his engine will stay together.

I wish I was a tuner so I knew all the strategies in the OEM PCU and could explain things better, but Jon has taught me a lot by just watching him tune my car, and he tells me a lot of neat things through his process. I really like the fact that Lund has such good control of everything, they keep all the OEM strategies in the PCM so my 10 second car runs and drives just like it did stock, but at WOT its an animal.

So yes sorry to babble on and on, a 91 octane tune using 93 octane fuel would give you a nice safeguard. I always call that over octane, if said tune is all set and has shown very little or no knock on 91, if you then started using 93, you'd have a nice little safeguard, depending on the tuner and the strategies set in the PCM, it might even start adding timing.

 

[PJB]

I would like to be of some help but I've only put a few hundred miles on it so far and have not stood in it at all. I will say this engine runs night and day smoother than the previous, stock for stock, and actually seems more responsive. Now this could be due to my previous aftermarket pieces that are on the engine minus the tune.

 

[marjen]

So now 16s are popping? First everyone said it was only the Spain engines, then it was only the 15s. Now 16s are busting holes in the wall. Honestly I dont think anyone has a clue as to what the issue is, but be careful modding folks.

 

[perfweld]

So now 16s are popping? First everyone said it was only the Spain engines, then it was only the 15s. Now 16s are busting holes in the wall. Honestly I dont think anyone has a clue as to what the issue is, but be careful modding folks.

Those of us that have some seat time under out belts with engines / racing / cars do know exactly what's going on. Its those that know little to nothing that are in the dark.

 

[Ebm]

.

So now 16s are popping? First everyone said it was only the Spain engines, then it was only the 15s. Now 16s are busting holes in the wall. Honestly I dont think anyone has a clue as to what the issue is, but be careful modding folks.

That's the issue. Everybody thinks it's just 1 issue that causes all this. With so many different variables in the equation, (year, tuner, exact mod setup, how you drive, octane of fuel used, the weather), it isn't just 1 issue.

 

[Turbong]

So now 16s are popping? First everyone said it was only the Spain engines, then it was only the 15s. Now 16s are busting holes in the wall. Honestly I dont think anyone has a clue as to what the issue is, but be careful modding folks.

So what a few Cleveland motors are not allowed to pop now? The target should be 100% fail proof even for manufacturing defects, tuner, drivers errors?

 

[metalhead79]

Those of us that have some seat time under out belts with engines / racing / cars do know exactly what's going on. Its those that know little to nothing that are in the dark.

I always take whatever you say seriously since I know you successfully pushed your stock block quite hard.

 

[Aaron_ATX]

OEM tune is safe with whatever shit gas you put in it no matter where you live. OEM is safest tune; it's designed for customers who don't pay attention to fuel quality. Ford runs these engines for hundreds of hours at peak power in a lab to test that it is safe.

I run on a 91 octane tune stage 1 tune on actual 93 gas, early build 2015 engine. No problems in 36k miles, have had the tune since about 15k. Manual trans.

Ford is not buying gas from gas stations to test motors. Infact i'd find it highly unlikely they will even use gasoline with ethanol in it for said tests. Let alone the possibility of getting 15% ethanol and then the accompanying water percentage that the ethanol invites.

Worked at a small engine repair place for a few years and did some random tests on fuel from random stations. Eye opening.

You'd be surprised how much water gets into fuel after large rainstorms...

 

[Slow89]

Those of us that have some seat time under out belts with engines / racing / cars do know exactly what's going on. Its those that know little to nothing that are in the dark.

:amen:

 

[Slow89]

Ford is not buying gas from gas stations to test motors. Infact i'd find it highly unlikely they will even use gasoline with ethanol in it for said tests. Let alone the possibility of getting 15% ethanol and then the accompanying water percentage that the ethanol invites.

Worked at a small engine repair place for a few years and did some random tests on fuel from random stations. Eye opening.

You'd be surprised how much water gets into fuel after large rainstorms...

I heard this from a friend who worked at a gas station. I know he was only a cashier but whenever it rains hard in Cali (doesn't happen much). I usually drive like a grandpa for that fill up.

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