Design Predictability vs. Design Reach

[5.0GT]

I love my 13...I had an 07 and it feels, looks, and drives nothing like an 07....for me the S550, MUST lose 300 lbs for me to consider trading up/in. IRS, DI, are all great but for me it's the weight!

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[5.0GT]

I never understood why they call the current Mustang retro. It is really the most modern looking Mustang to date IMO. Same with the '14 Camaro. Maybe the 05 was more classic looking but looking at the 13-14, it's not that close.

i think what people are callin retro is actually just plain old Americana design and what ppl afraid of is not that retro will go away but that european design with sloping curves, minimilistic style and no hard edges is going to make the Mustang not recognizable.

American design is loud, bold, in yor face and powerful. I dont see that in the Evos or any of Fords' designs lately. I think Mays and Co have given the european designers too much involvement if turns out looking like i think it might.

I agree. Do you see more Camaros or 5.0's in Houston?

 

[HTownStang]

I agree. Do you see more Camaros or 5.0's in Houston?

Mustangs, but that could just be due to the circles I run in. There's a pretty good turn out for the shows/meets for both. We just had a Mustang VS Camaro show and Camaros took home the prize for bigger turn out but good news is we're seeing more pony cars in general driving around, makes it more fun for friendly competition.

 

[thePill]

I'm tryin' to keep up, so forgive me if I've missed it elsewhere...............but I assume that won't happen (DI) for the '15MY? My assumption would be we'll see that at the next ('18MY) refresh?

I was told by several people that the GT's Coyote needs some mods to get it above the 440 mark, I don't think DI will be out in 2015. If the budget was large enough, then I'll agree with Norm. Upgrade now... But, that upgrade is really unnecessary at first if weight is lost. I'm willing to bet 429HP is a nice place to start while still holding some cards to the chest.

I am ready for the new direction and it's possible Ford will hit thre ground running with the S550. I am reminded of Martin Smith's comments regarding the S550 and it's BIG future. Martin isn't an idiot... He calls the S550 a "Sports Car"

Time to chase the Vette!!!

GENEVA -- Ford Motor Co.'s product development team is facing its toughest challenge yet in developing a global design language: creating a Mustang that works outside North America.

The next Mustang, scheduled to arrive next year, is scheduled for sale in Europe and other parts of the world. For Ford of Europe design chief Martin Smith, that means Ford has "a knife edge to walk" in keeping the fabled pony car attractive to American loyalists while appealing to new buyers.

"That is a really interesting challenge," Smith said in an interview at the Geneva auto show. "What will emerge from that whole process is one of the best sports cars in the world and one that is still affordable."

"It won't cost $1 million," he added, in a reference to the several seven-figure models on display in Geneva.

The development process is moving the Mustang to Ford global design and engineering standards, while trying to maintain its identity as "a North American icon," Smith said. The next-generation Ford Edge also will be sold in Europe.

Although a few Mustangs have been sold in Europe by private importers, Ford will sell the next generation through its dealer network as part of the "one Ford" push initiated by CEO Alan Mulally.

Ford also showed the five-seat Tourneo Connect, the next generation of the Transit Connect in the United States.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...#axzz2NGVul01x

I'm sorry Camaro fans, I'm not sure there is any room for you here... Honestly :( The Corvette will be priority and should be because it is part of America, just as the Mustang.

The Camaro quit, that's about as un-American as you can get... It is not an American Icon. It was, but that was pissed away for the rising sales of the SUV in 2002.

 

[Norm Peterson]

HTown - that 'hip' shape in the rear quarters of the 2010-up is taken directly from the very first originals that came out in 1964 and carried through until at least 1973. That same shape was emulated by the bottoms of the quarter windows in the Mustang II. It disappeared in the Fox and stayed gone until 2010. That's perhaps the biggest thing.

I would say that overall the S197 has the cleanest lines since the MII (the Fox GT was way overdone with surface excitement, and the SN95 detailing around where the greenhouse line connects to the bodyside never looked quite right to me - a little too hard of an angle between the C-pillars and the quarters rather than a small radius, so it looked like the greenhouse was stuck on as an afterthought. Even the 1966 coupes had a better transition there.

The S197 isn't a true replica of the original - it's a little too tall and bulked-up a bit compared to the more slender lines of the 1960's cars. It looks heavier, which of course it is.

Same for the Camaro except Chevy exaggerated the hotrod/customizers' top chop look just a little too far for an OE offering (IMO). I think only a 20mm lower beltline with the same shape would have worked better.



Pill - for a guy who claims objection to the Mustang being drawn into yet another round of "muscle", there's a lot of emphasis on power and power to weight in those Mustang vs Corvette scenarios of yours.

I'll give you that at this point in time the pony car could be considered a subset of sports coupes in general . . . as long as that means that its roots are clearly U.S domestic sporty and that its identity remains obvious at a glance. Let's not have too much of the ponycar be bred out of it.


Norm

 

[thePill]

HTown - that 'hip' shape in the rear quarters of the 2010-up is taken directly from the very first originals that came out in 1964 and carried through until at least 1973. That same shape was emulated by the bottoms of the quarter windows in the Mustang II. It disappeared in the Fox and stayed gone until 2010. That's perhaps the biggest thing.

I would say that overall the S197 has the cleanest lines since the MII (the Fox GT was way overdone with surface excitement, and the SN95 detailing around where the greenhouse line connects to the bodyside never looked quite right to me - a little too hard of an angle between the C-pillars and the quarters rather than a small radius, so it looked like the greenhouse was stuck on as an afterthought. Even the 1966 coupes had a better transition there.

The S197 isn't a true replica of the original - it's a little too tall and bulked-up a bit compared to the more slender lines of the 1960's cars. It looks heavier, which of course it is.

Same for the Camaro except Chevy exaggerated the hotrod/customizers' top chop look just a little too far for an OE offering (IMO). I think only a 20mm lower beltline with the same shape would have worked better.



Pill - for a guy who claims objection to the Mustang being drawn into yet another round of "muscle", there's a lot of emphasis on power and power to weight in those Mustang vs Corvette scenarios of yours.

I'll give you that at this point in time the pony car could be considered a subset of sports coupes in general . . . as long as that means that its roots are clearly U.S domestic sporty and that its identity remains obvious at a glance. Let's not have too much of the ponycar be bred out of it.


Norm

Power, weight and MSRP will be the issue between the Vette, S550 and Camaro. I keep going back to those 3 main factors because they will inevitably put the Camaro and Corvette too close for Team Vette's comfort. This is a huge advantage for Ford and puts Team Camaro in a bit of a future pickle.

It could come down to this...

If Chevy wants to upgrade the Camaro to best the S550, they may have to upgrade the Stingray as well. I highly doubt Team Camaro would ever get a green light to produce better numbers than the Stingray. This will be a costly venture for Chevy moving two products up every time Ford improves it's Mustang brand.

The power or power to weight references I go back to are not Muscle car references... In fact, just forget power and focus on power to weight because that is what world class sports cars and coupes are focused on now for performance.

A muscle car is big cubes, big blocks (mostly), big power and big curves... and also past away shortly after 1970 and will never return to life.

 

[Norm Peterson]

In fact, just forget power and focus on power to weight because that is what world class sports cars and coupes are focused on now for performance.

Done.

Truth is, I never was a big-block fan. Add lightness and rpms instead.


Norm

 

[thePill]

Done.

Truth is, I never was a big-block fan. Add lightness and rpms instead.


Norm

You know I love you Norm... I wouldn't have any fun if you weren't here.

 

[6SPD4ME]

I will hit on a few things because I can't let stupidity go...

With a Screen Photo and Name like yours, I thought it would go hand in hand.

The Cobra, Vette and Mustang all competed in the SCCA... Once Chevy, Pontiac, Dodge and everyone else came to town, the sports cars were seperated from the Sports coupes... Nobody bitched about the GT350 in a Covette class until it was unfair for some reason. The Camaro dragged the Mustang down a 4 year Muscle Car era and pretty much lost it's identity from there... I'd say 1971. However, that survival became the Mustang's heritage, NOT the 4 years it spent as a Muscle car because Chevy didn't want a 2+2 whoopin' their ass.

Under "Muscle Car 101", it states it was the 1964 Pontiac GTO that dragged everyone into the "Muscle Car" genre or race. Talk about stupidity! You must be grinning from ear to ear.

Hard to read... No, Shelby approached Ford about turning the Mustang into a race car... It was just a 2+2 but became a competitive sports coupe in 1965.

It was Lee Iacocca who recognized the one shortfall of the Mustang and approached Carroll Shelby, after his work and victory at LeMans with the GT40. That smile looks to be disappearing fast!

YEP!!! But Chevy can't 1/4 mile anymore. The GT500 has seen to that and Chevy won't class the Z28 with the Boss 302 in ANY organized racing. The Z28 won't be feeding any street battles from it's road racing performance, it has major illegal equipment.

Until the Race Sanctioning Body, like Rolex 24 & Petite LeMans, announces its 2014MY Classifications for races you are jumping the gun and posting BS. People who purchase these "Street Example" cars most likely will never take them to a Road Course and could care less. You'll see them, if you really do go Drag Racing", a 1/4-mile at a time. Plus whatever Street Racing some may do!

If you don't understand what I just said, I'll make it a little easier. It's the Race Sanctioning Body that Classifies a car and not the manufacturer. Did I just see that smile turn into a frown?

Yep, and that 175hp Trans Am weighed 3600lbs while the 135hp Mustang II weight 3000... Weight in which the Camaro still carries today. Your giving the 70's Trans Am the "Muscle Car label while it pounded out a 17 second 1/4 mile at 82mph? The Trans Am didn't carry on the Muscle Car, if anything, Burt Reynolds saved the Firebird from the axe. It was on the chopping block several times in the 70's and 80's.

Back in 1974, when the Mustang II had a 135hp V8 the Pontiac Trans Am had two different 400-4V V8s and a 455SD (which ran a 13.5 at 100-plus mph). '78 introduced Reynolds to the T/A. While the RWD Mustang faced its own chopping block until Ford decided the FWD replacement was a Probe. Tsk! Tsk! Too much time putting on that makeup, I guess!

Those men that kept the Mustang alive for the last 50 years are dying of old age (or marriage)... Dead men can't buy Mustang's, that's the purpose of evolving to appeal to a younger crowd.

LMAO . . . I'd like to see you post this comment on the Mustang Club of America website. However, I'll make it easier on you. Try the Valley Forge Mustang Club and see how many dead men walking steps on your toes.

Ummmm... No... Pretty sure the "Pony Car War" and "New Muscle Car Era" were headlines to sell magazines.. In 2002, the media didn't start advertising the Pony Car or Muscle Car until the 2005 came out. They are trying to feed their families... Please, the media has nothing to do with anything... Chevy may rest on every word but that's because that's all they really have right now.

Actually, it was 2008. When the current Camaro and Challenger was announced for production. 202 MPH 2013 Shelby GT500 also helps sells magazines, when only a Top Speed of 198 has been recorded. Please continue to help the Postman, so he can get overtime for Saturday deliveries.

Back track? Do you see a Ford GT, Cobra Roadster, GT90 or Shelby GR-1 in production right now? No, and you may never see them again. Why, it's cheaper to build from an existing budget, from existing platforms, using existing parts to sell more cars and win more races. A kid on the street can't afford these cars, that's why they don't care about racing...

A kid on the street basically couldn't afford one in the 60s and 70s. Most were purchased as 2nd owners. I guess you never seen a kid in a hopped up Honda? Wow! That "S" sounding word just keeps swirling around your philosophy.

Did you say the quarter panel will buckle????? Are you taking the pot? I have no idea what your trying to say about the ZL1 and GT500 being heavier than the SS and GT... I always thought it was the supercharger, bigger engine, transmission and cooling that made the GT500 200lbs heavier than the GT.

For someone who takes pride in his knowledge of chassis dynamics, I'm surprised you don't understand what happens when excessive horsepower defeats chassis rigidness. Whether its a 4.6 - 5.0 -5.4SC or 5.8SC V8 there comes a time. That's why NHRA has rules requiring upgrades at different points for Drag Racing. Dumb! Dumb! Dumb!

Getting.... difficult... must.. post... reply. Listen buddy, weight savings comes from downsizing, chassis efficiency and using lighter/stronger materials.

Wow! Did you actually just Google to finally say something we can agree upon? However, those Fox body Mustangs just keep dancing in my head, when extreme HP exceed those factory numbers. Remember, there is a Stock/Super Stock factor on factory parts. That means a 1-to-1.5 second performance increase on ET before the aftermarket takes over. That's "Old School" before your time.

I'm sure that's going smooth... See Jim Farley for details...

Okay, here we go... The 2014 Stingray weighs 3444lbs and puts out 460hp. IF the next GT (Not GT350 or GT500) loses 200lbs from the current S197's 3620lbs, that gets it pretty close to the Stingrays 3444lbs. Now, I don't expect HP to jump too much before the Direct Injection Coyote is released but, the GT and Stingray could be separated by 40hp and almost even in weight. I don't understand why you think the S550 GT will weigh 3700lbs. The GT350 could get a z28-ish weight reduction, it could be lighter than the Stingray and produce 40-70hp more... That's pretty close to the Stingray bud, waaaaaaaaaaaay too close for the Camaro to follow.

LOL . . . You do like to mix those Apples and Oranges. I believe the post just a few before stated 2+2 Sports Coupe and 2-Seat Sports Car are not the same class or have the same chassis dynamics. Isn't chassis dynamics something you eluded too earlier?

You jump so much from 2014MY Stingray to GT350 to Z/28 you forget that with increased HP added weight is needed. A 5.0 GT and GT350 will have different curb weight. And until, the total drivetrain package (HP/Rear End Gear Ratios/Trans Gearing) are announced your assessment is BS. Yet, another capital "S" in your corner.

Muscle cars are DEAD, there is no such thing as an S197 Muscle car. The S197 and 5th Gen are Retro which is basically a Muscle car rip-off because that is what was trending when the developed the car (Like "Muscle Cars were trendy in '67-'71). I live near Pittsburgh International, I have been to a drag strip, with my car built specifically for strip/street. If I told the owner of the tubbed '69 that my 2011 GT was a Muscle car, he would laugh me off the track.

Is that International as in Airport, because you're flying off the charts . . . LOL . . . I'd laugh at you too if you had your makeup on! Whether Americans want to accept it or not the term "Muscle Cars" pertains to "Old, Modern - American. Foreign" in today's world.

Actually, his tubed '69 is a "Race Car", according to NHRA by definition. Because not all 2-door 60s-70s cars were Muscle Cars. They had specific designations. You wear the Capital "S" well.

I understand why Europeans want them, because they are rare... Trust me, they are far from impressed with the 0-100km of a 1969 Mach 1.

Whether your on the other side of the Great Pond or here, they will tell you its. 0-60 mph/1/4-mile/Top Speed and not kilometers that counts. Do you know just how many 1969 Mach 1s were made? They are not that rare. Just appreciated for their styling and performance (both stock and modified). Ooh, yeah! They feel the same way in the "Land of Oz".

I go to whoever made the car to get info... Again, I don't let the media tell me what to think.

If this is true, then why are you so pissed at Chevy ad Camaro5 ??? Maybe because they didn't bow to you! Just my guess! Wrong genre of cars for me.

I am sorry I don't know much about the Mustang III. I can tell you one thing, the S550 program has been called the Mustang III whether in jest or reference. You can't just make shit up and expect me to know what your talking about.

Well, I can tell that you aren't book smart then. Because Mustang III was the internal reference for the 1979 Mustang. Which has bred three additional Gen styled cars. And soon to be Gen 6. You must be a newbie to the Mustang world!


Pretty sure SRT had the Viper line-up locked down before any magazines got the first one. They didn't just decide to make another one based on how well the editor liked the car. Are you feeling Okay???

With your supposed knowledge from going to whoever made the car (previously stated just above) I'm shocked that you are "only" pretty sure. It doesn't sound to me like you have too many contacts within the automotive circles.

Oh please baby Jesus, heal this man!!! I'm glad you agree that I was correct on the ZL1 weight issue 3 years ago. The truth is clearer now that Chevy said yeah... it weighs 4200lbs. As for the heat soak, it has nothing to do with the automatic transmission, it has everything to do with the 1.9 liter blower they chose. I warned those morons it was going to be an issue, now look at the fools. Every ZL1 owner is buying a Chiller or porting the blower (most times both). Mlee was a defender of this ZL1... and he is installing a Chiller due to heat soak. Remember the first test at Inde, in 50 degree temps? Strange how that same ZL1, the ZL1 Chevy claims is 3 SECONDS faster than the GT500, can't really manage a dominant victory (even in magazines). Lets get them on the strip as you say and see what happens... The Mustang CHASED the Camaro out of Drag racing and into road racing... where I'm sure Ford is about to meet them again. With a true competitor, not some pooped out, square block of white dog sh@t Chevy is calling a z28. It looks dumb... really dumb...

Wow! So, you're saying you are smarter than the engineers! Kudos on that one! There is just one flaw that I fine. Most people who Drag Race change pulleys and mod the factory SC V8s. So, on paper you are correct but every SC car I've seen, especially Drag Racing is always modified with Tune and Pulleys. So, in the end it negates your great hypothesis.

You don't know Camaro5? But yet you referenced their thread "The Pill Is Hard To Swallow" in the end of your first post. Okay...

Camaro5!!! I could smell your sites stench as soon as I clicked on the thread.

LOL . . . and I thought I was just having fun with a play on words!
Actually, you smell yourself and your heritage. They must have really pissed you off. The anger just oozes out of you.

You wear that big, capital "S" well. So, keep guessing!

Now, what exactly are you trying to say?

 

[KZStang]

Ugh.

Take it to PM guys.

 

[thePill]

I would think that rumors of a 400lbs weight loss and a 3200lb V6 would help prove my point to this guy. The Mustang could very well contend with the Corvette and leave all the Muscle car labels behind... It puts Chevy is a spot when it comes to the Corvette and Camaro.

I'm not getting side tracked, my original argument stands and could be true based on current rumors. I don't know what's up with him. He disagreed with my point but that's really hard to do now with people hearing the major weight loss. The Mustang GT could be a 3300-3400lbs car... and Chevy can't lose weight in a vehicle to save their lives. This puts the Camaro in a really bad spot...

Do these side windows look smaller than the ones we been seeing? They look really, really sporty to me.

I guess it is just a smaller window... At this angle, the car looks like it uses the basic sporty side window design.

 

[Pabo]

I never seen this picture before. I'm thinking the window line is just taped that way. If it were to follow that line there would be almost no room for the quarter window.

Also what is this part that I boxed off..... that's a pretty large gap for the hood no?

 

[S550Boss]

That is the actual window line. If you look at it form other angles, it's not blocked off or made smaller. The side window glass is *tiny*, just like a Camaro's. And if you look at the pic of the driver, the window sill at just above his shoulder line. The glass is about 2.5" shorter than before.
That gap for the hood is the same as the current car.. .because the this car is based heavily on the current car.

 

[IronMonkey]

Yawn. Based heavily on current car whatever that means, I doubt many really care as long as it looks good, a little lighter and smaller and can still pack a mean punch.

From the looks of it the smaller part is definitely there and we know the Coyote is too. Halfway there.

 

[DBCooper]

T
That gap for the hood is the same as the current car.. .because the this car is based heavily on the current car.

If Ford doesn't produce a car that "reaches" in design, it's going to end up being a big yawner and flop. (No knock on the current car). This is too big of a pivotal point in the life of the Mustang to be predictable. As already mentioned, how can they stay fresh and relevant in the coming years by just refreshing an old design?

I'll be very disappointed if what you are saying happens. The one positive is it will save me the effort of having to convince my wife that I need one...

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