Cobb or Bama

[greg hazlett]

I understand your comment about vendor bashing and everyone reads things differently but from what I have read there has not been any bashing, just discussion...

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[gzstang]

I didn't have a cat on my cobb tuned focus st and it ran great...

 

[foghat]

Kyle@Cobb, just an FYI I think you misread what you responded to. He was referring to disabling the code only. Not the sensor itself. Might want to fix your response.

The response Kyle quoted and responded did indeed talk about disabling the sensor...

I for one just had a conversation with someone yesterday who purchased our OR Downpipe and then called back to say that Cobb was unwilling or unable to turn off his downstream 02 sensor in the tune and told him to get a local Cobb dealer/tuner to do that for him which would have meant the customer spending more money on top of the 5 bills he spent on the tuner.

 

[JJ@WMS]

Now, if you hadn't developed a dp, tested it and built a tune for it, thus did not have this knowledge, would you have simply disabled the o2 sensor because a customer requested it be done? I hope not. Not to put words in Cobb's mouth, but all Cobb was saying, I think, is we aren't going to do that because at this point we don't know what the outcome will be of adding a dp without a supporting tune.



Again, not to put words in Cobb's mouth, once they actually build a tune that incorporates a dp and are happy with the way things are running, they disable the sensor (or something). Whatever they do, it takes care of the check engine light.

Yes, if someone were to have requested a tune from me and in that tune he stated he was running an OR downpipe I would happily turn that downstream sensor off even if I had never developed or tested an OR pipe on our own car.

The reason I would feel comfortable doing that is because I know two things. One is that I completely understand what the downstream sensors job is and not one single part of its job involves how the car runs. Secondly from being in the automotive field for 30 years and tuning for the past 10 years I know that by removing the cat (s) wont have any negative affect on how the car performs.

FWIW SCT offers a Pro Racer package which will allow you to do your own tuning as well. It gives you the same software and access to the calibration as the tuning dealer does so you can do your own tuning to the raw calibration if you so desire.

As much as some companies try to make you feel that this is rocket science its actually not. I'll put a simple bolt on car with a base tune up against another car with 10 different "maps" and all the bells and whistles that go with it. Keep it simple has always worked for me and I feel it makes life less complicated.

For those that think I'm bashing I'm not, I'm just questioning why a simple change to a tune cant be made quickly for the consumer for something as simple as turning off a code/downstream sensor.

Not trying to step on any toes, just adding information I feel is important.

JJ

 

[foghat]

Yes, if someone were to have requested a tune from me and in that tune he stated he was running an OR downpipe I would happily turn that downstream sensor off even if I had never developed or tested an OR pipe on our own car.

The reason I would feel comfortable doing that is because I know two things. One is that I completely understand what the downstream sensors job is and not one single part of its job involves how the car runs. Secondly from being in the automotive field for 30 years and tuning for the past 10 years I know that by removing the cat (s) wont have any negative affect on how the car performs.

FWIW SCT offers a Pro Racer package which will allow you to do your own tuning as well. It gives you the same software and access to the calibration as the tuning dealer does so you can do your own tuning to the raw calibration if you so desire.

As much as some companies try to make you feel that this is rocket science its actually not. I'll put a simple bolt on car with a base tune up against another car with 10 different "maps" and all the bells and whistles that go with it. Keep it simple has always worked for me and I feel it makes life less complicated.

For those that think I'm bashing I'm not, I'm just questioning why a simple change to a tune cant be made quickly for the consumer for something as simple as turning off a code/downstream sensor.

Not trying to step on any toes, just adding information I feel is important.

JJ

Fair enough. Thanks for the detailed response.

Though, to me, it still questionable calling out Cobb because they didn't do this - would you have written the same thing if the person had a SCT device instead and they told you that they got in touch with SCT and that SCT would not modify their OTS map?

You as a tuner and a SCT reseller offer this service to your customers. SCT itself, like Cobb, does not - they make and sell the hardware/software and offer a base map.

The fact that Cobb does have their own service facilities perhaps muddies this argument a bit, but I think it still stands as they have never (as far as I know) been in the online custom tune business.

 

[dragonacc]

Your question has already been answered.

 

[Tcnarber]

ATR and ATP is now available!

Kyle@COBB

Any issues if I added an Airaid at the same time as an AP?

 

[smdandb2]

For those that think I'm bashing I'm not, I'm just questioning why a simple change to a tune cant be made quickly for the consumer for something as simple as turning off a code/downstream sensor.

Liability.

There are two sides to that. One being if the car breaks, and probably the bigger one being the legal ramifications.

I think the legal ramifications is why they offer ATR for a really reasonable price. Give the customer the ability to willfully defy the law and the liability if shifted away from COBB.

Then again, I am just taking a guess at this. I know a few big manufacturers that are changing how their stuff is sold in California this year due to CARB regulations. The guys in states that don't have strict emissions standards often don't really understand how some states and federal entities are starting to take this kind of stuff very seriously these days.

I'm in Utah, and when my car is due for emissions testing in late 2016 it will have the stock ECU calibration on it. After watching what has happened here the past 2 years with cars being red flagged by the state I am not taking that chance in the least.

 

[greg hazlett]

You have to be a bit of adult when it comes to modding your car; you make the choice of what to put on your car and if you are not comfortable with doing it for fear of getting caught then don't buy the parts.

Tuners have to be able to give tunes for all 50 states, every one of them is different with regards to inspections/smog, etc.

 

[bislag]

The response Kyle quoted and responded did indeed talk about disabling the sensor...

Apparently it was I who misread. D'oh!

 

[wireless]

Liability.

There are two sides to that. One being if the car breaks, and probably the bigger one being the legal ramifications.

I think the legal ramifications is why they offer ATR for a really reasonable price. Give the customer the ability to willfully defy the law and the liability if shifted away from COBB.

Then again, I am just taking a guess at this. I know a few big manufacturers that are changing how their stuff is sold in California this year due to CARB regulations. The guys in states that don't have strict emissions standards often don't really understand how some states and federal entities are starting to take this kind of stuff very seriously these days.

I'm in Utah, and when my car is due for emissions testing in late 2016 it will have the stock ECU calibration on it. After watching what has happened here the past 2 years with cars being red flagged by the state I am not taking that chance in the least.

OK so....
First and foremost -- the rear o2 sensor literally does nothing except for measure cat efficiency. 99% of cars now have at least two cats -- the pre-cat o2 sensor and the downstream o2 sensor.

Here's the difference:
the pre-cat o2 sensor does more than just take a "before" reading -- it gives an idea of how rich/lean the car is running, it helps calculate EGT's, etc.

the downstream o2 sensor is just a cat-efficiency sensor.. and can be disabled safely on pretty much any car without any negatives.

I can see where they are both coming from -- but Cobb, in a nutshell, should not be modifying stuff for their custom tunes. They have always operated this way by using their network of Protuners.

 

[JJ@WMS]

Fair enough. Thanks for the detailed response.

Though, to me, it still questionable calling out Cobb because they didn't do this - would you have written the same thing if the person had a SCT device instead and they told you that they got in touch with SCT and that SCT would not modify their OTS map?

You as a tuner and a SCT reseller offer this service to your customers. SCT itself, like Cobb, does not - they make and sell the hardware/software and offer a base map.

The fact that Cobb does have their own service facilities perhaps muddies this argument a bit, but I think it still stands as they have never (as far as I know) been in the online custom tune business.

Actually depending on the vehicle SCT does offer "user options" to turn specific things on and off when you purchase a "pre loaded" device.

For example you can turn EGR on and off on some applications, you can also turn rear 02 sensors off on some applications. Moreso SCT also offers a crank relearn procedure using the device for the Earlier Coyote Mustangs.

SCT also provides the "base tune" that will work very well in the majority of cars, that base tune is available to any custom tuning dealer and that tuning dealer can then turn off or disable the downstream sensor very easily.

My over all point was that if you purchase the device and base tunes from any tuning company why should you have to pay again for having something as simple as a downstream 02 sensor being turned off? Sure if you want the car completely custom tuned thats fine and you should pay for that but for a simple change like that it shouldnt cost any customer a dime.

JJ

 

[foghat]

Actually depending on the vehicle SCT does offer "user options" to turn specific things on and off when you purchase a "pre loaded" device.

For example you can turn EGR on and off on some applications, you can also turn rear 02 sensors off on some applications. Moreso SCT also offers a crank relearn procedure using the device for the Earlier Coyote Mustangs.

Can you do that on the ecoboost mustang?

SCT also provides the "base tune" that will work very well in the majority of cars, that base tune is available to any custom tuning dealer and that tuning dealer can then turn off or disable the downstream sensor very easily.

So does Cobb and so could any Cobb custom tuning dealer.

My over all point was that if you purchase the device and base tunes from any tuning company why should you have to pay again for having something as simple as a downstream 02 sensor being turned off? Sure if you want the car completely custom tuned thats fine and you should pay for that but for a simple change like that it shouldnt cost any customer a dime.

JJ

I don't disagree.

My overall point was that you seem to be holding Cobb, as a hardware provider, to a different standard than SCT. If the SCT can't do it natively or the base tune doesn't include it, I suspect SCT is not going to make a free one off change to their base map for a customer - just like Cobb.

If you were a cobb tuner, you could have turned off the sensor for that guy. Heck, download the ATR software (it's free), figure out how to turn it off and do it for your customer. That would be some service.

 

[dragonacc]

My over all point was that if you purchase the device and base tunes from any tuning company why should you have to pay again for having something as simple as a downstream 02 sensor being turned off? Sure if you want the car completely custom tuned thats fine and you should pay for that but for a simple change like that it shouldnt cost any customer a dime.

JJ

You won't! It's obvious you have an agenda here. Cobb gives base maps just like SCT. I bought my AP from FFTEC. If I want them to turn off the rear O2's they can do that WITHOUT PAYING AGAIN.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

You won't! It's obvious you have an agenda here. Cobb gives base maps just like SCT. I bought my AP from FFTEC. If I want them to turn off the rear O2's they can do that WITHOUT PAYING AGAIN.

So the lesson here is to not buy direct from Cobb? In defense of JJ, I am/was a bit confused as well.

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