Chevy copies Ford

[SVTSNAKE355]

Yes, design engineer, 35 years. Mobile equipment for the last 31.

Let's look at the facts, none of the big three made a flat plane crank V-8 until 2015, when Ford did it. Ford's version receives great acclaim as giving the GT350 "soul" and the car beats every Camaro in head to head tests ( the desirability part, not necessarily the actual performance numbers) despite the Camaro having in some cases 100 more HP.

5 years later, in line with development time of, "hey why didn't we think of that", when they got wind of the GT350 Chevy debut's a DOHC FPC V-8. And on top, in an effort to one up the previous largest displacement FPC V-8, Chevy adds .3 liters.

Yes, design engineer, 35 years. Mobile equipment for the last 31.

Let's look at the facts, none of the big three made a flat plane crank V-8 until 2015, when Ford did it. Ford's version receives great acclaim as giving the GT350 "soul" and the car beats every Camaro in head to head tests ( the desirability part, not necessarily the actual performance numbers) despite the Camaro having in some cases 100 more HP.

5 years later, in line with development time of, "hey why didn't we think of that", when they got wind of the GT350 Chevy debut's a DOHC FPC V-8. And on top, in an effort to one up the previous largest displacement FPC V-8, Chevy adds .3 liters.

I agree with this statement

Sponsored

 

[kz]

Yes, design engineer, 35 years. Mobile equipment for the last 31.

Let's look at the facts, none of the big three made a flat plane crank V-8 until 2015, when Ford did it. Ford's version receives great acclaim as giving the GT350 "soul" and the car beats every Camaro in head to head tests ( the desirability part, not necessarily the actual performance numbers) despite the Camaro having in some cases 100 more HP.

5 years later, in line with development time of, "hey why didn't we think of that", when they got wind of the GT350 Chevy debut's a DOHC FPC V-8. And on top, in an effort to one up the previous largest displacement FPC V-8, Chevy adds .3 liters.

Yes, let's look at the facts. They're designing the engine for real racing applications and in a competitive corporate environment (since supposedly that engine will make into street cars) that if you are familiar with, nothing than optimized design that is cheap and reliable would get approved. You obviously look at the competition to benchmark things, but you don't do things because they've done it but because it makes sense in this particular application (19 years designing things that are ~$10M a piece and have much more critical application safety wise than car engines). Reason "because someone else did it" seems _extremely_ ridiculous for any reasonable engineer. Reason "someone else did it so let's look if this is going to work in our application" makes sense. Take off your Ford fanboy hats, they make you look like fanboys, not engineers.

All aside - given rate at which Ford replace GT350 engines, do you really think they would do something "because Ford" for an engine that is actually going to be used in a real endurance racing ? LOLOL

 

[cosmic charlie]

I owned a '69 El Camino SS 396. And Ford had what, again? I don't remember anything competitive......

Ford had the 360HP 428 Cobra Jet in the Ranchero in 1969. I'm sure it was competitive.

 

[SVTSNAKE355]

First isn't better. Otherwise I would still be married to #1 wife.

BTW I had to Rancheros as well. The Chevy was hands down better.

When did I say first was better in that statement?I gave an example of Garbage Motors copying FORD.

 

[SVTSNAKE355]

Ford had the 360HP 428 Cobra Jet in the Ranchero in 1969. I'm sure it was competitive.

He doesn't understand that

 

[cosmic charlie]

It was a turd.

I don't know. I'm not an old car guy but? It looks at least competitive to me.

All this would change for the 1969 model year however, as Ford now packed the 428 Cobra Jet. This was arguably the best street performance engine ever to roll out of Dearborn, and it was available on the Ranchero option list. Enter our feature car, a sporty Wimbledon White Ranchero GT featuring black vinyl top and GT stripes. The interior sports optional Courtesy Lights, AM/FM Radio, Deluxe Steering Wheel with Rim-Blow horn and an instrument panel mounted tachometer. All very nice, but it’s the functional hood scoop feeding fresh air through a 735 cfm Holley four barrel carburetor to that big, thumping 428 Cobra Jet torque monster residing below that really matters. That tells where the sharp points on the horns of the bulls head emblems affixed to our Ranchero’s B-pillars come from. Vastly underrated at 335 horsepower, the big FE is backed up by a hefty close ratio T&C Toploader 4-speed transmission, while a 3.50 geared Traction-Lok differential assures that any heavy dose of throttle will shred both rear F70x14 Polyglas tires equally.

The 428 Cobra Jet engine receives horsepower-producing outside air via a vacuum operated flap on the top of the air cleaner, which is sealed against the bottom of the hood via a heavy rubber gasket. This system feeds air to a 735 cfm Holley four barrel carburetor mounted atop an 80 plus pound cast iron intake manifold that was a copy of Ford’s Police Interceptor aluminum intake. A very tractable hydraulic lifter camshaft (.481/.490 lift with 270/290 degrees of duration) identical to that used in the earlier 390GT engine, fed the mixture through 2.09” intake valves into cast combustion chambers where cast aluminum pistons squeezed it to a ratio of 10.5 to 1. Burnt gasses were expelled via 1.66” exhaust valves through Cobra Jet specific free flowing cast iron exhaust manifolds. With a 4.13” bore diameter and 3.98” stroke, the 428 made gobs of torque (440 ft.lbs. at 3,400 rpm) while the almost laughable factory horsepower rating of 335 came at 5,200 rpm. The National Hot Rod Association “factored” the CJ’s output to 360 after Ford’s entries annihilated the competition at the 1968 Winter Nationals in Pomona, CA.

 

[cosmic charlie]

"annihilated the competition"

 

[jvandy50]

We have been reduced to trar talk

 

[activeGT]

We have been reduced to trar talk

Agreed. I deleted. Back to the topic.

 

[JT1]

Yes, let's look at the facts. They're designing the engine for real racing applications and in a competitive corporate environment (since supposedly that engine will make into street cars) that if you are familiar with, nothing than optimized design that is cheap and reliable would get approved. You obviously look at the competition to benchmark things, but you don't do things because they've done it but because it makes sense in this particular application (19 years designing things that are ~$10M a piece and have much more critical application safety wise than car engines). Reason "because someone else did it" seems _extremely_ ridiculous for any reasonable engineer. Reason "someone else did it so let's look if this is going to work in our application" makes sense. Take off your Ford fanboy hats, they make you look like fanboys, not engineers.

All aside - given rate at which Ford replace GT350 engines, do you really think they would do something "because Ford" for an engine that is actually going to be used in a real endurance racing ? LOLOL

From what I read the engine is 500 HP, which is the limit for the series they are going to race it in. I would hope it's capable of more since they've had 5 years and .3 extra liter to improve on the GT30s 526 HP.

The facts is, they could have made the series mandated 500 HP with a 5.5 liter LS.
Obviously the 5.5 FPC DOHC engine was designed with something else in mind. That being, getting some similar type accolades to the GT350 and GT350R, maybe selling N/A or maybe selling both a N/a A and an FI version.

 

[Hack]

Yes, let's look at the facts. They're designing the engine for real racing applications and in a competitive corporate environment (since supposedly that engine will make into street cars) that if you are familiar with, nothing than optimized design that is cheap and reliable would get approved. You obviously look at the competition to benchmark things, but you don't do things because they've done it but because it makes sense in this particular application (19 years designing things that are ~$10M a piece and have much more critical application safety wise than car engines). Reason "because someone else did it" seems _extremely_ ridiculous for any reasonable engineer. Reason "someone else did it so let's look if this is going to work in our application" makes sense. Take off your Ford fanboy hats, they make you look like fanboys, not engineers.

You are making an assumption that engineers make all decisions at GM based on what makes the most sense from an engineering standpoint. This is a laughable assumption. Completely silly. So you are trying to say that you believe sales, marketing, management, etc. has absolutely no pull at GM?

I thought you said you worked in industry and know what you are talking about.

All aside - given rate at which Ford replace GT350 engines, do you really think they would do something "because Ford" for an engine that is actually going to be used in a real endurance racing ? LOLOL

Yes, I do. If this engine had been a 4.3 or a 4.8 liter, then that would make more sense to me. At 5.5 liters it's larger than it should be for endurance racing at 500 hp - unless they are tuning their FPC to run at 6,000 RPM. The current LT2 could easily be adapted for racing at 500 hp. No additional engine needed and especially no FPC needed. Heck, NASCAR cross plane crank engines rev to 9,000 RPM and used to rev to 10,000. No need for a FPC from an engineering standpoint. It's an expensive thing to develop and the most likely explanation is that the reason for its existence is sales/marketing based.

And please tell me what rate Ford replaces GT350 engines.

 

[nastang87xx]

From what I read the engine is 500 HP, which is the limit for the series they are going to race it in. I would hope it's capable of more since they've had 5 years and .3 extra liter to improve on the GT30s 526 HP.

The facts is, they could have made the series mandated 500 HP with a 5.5 liter LS.
Obviously the 5.5 FPC DOHC engine was designed with something else in mind. That being, getting some similar type accolades to the GT350 and GT350R, maybe selling N/A or maybe selling both a N/a A and an FI version.

This is all correct. The IMSA class that the Corvette is in is limited to 500 horsepower. The GT Class that the Mustang is in is limited to 450.


The REAL reason why the GT4 Mustang went with a cross plane crank design in 2017 was NOT because the flat crank engine had durability issues. It's nonsense. The real reason was because the cross plane engine was easier to tune and carried that 450 horsepower for more RPM than the flat crank engine. But the flat crank engine was actually capable of more PEAK power than the cross plane engine. But anything past that 450 is wasted anyway so Ford Performance opted for a design that was easier to manufacture (manufacturing scaling), cheaper, and a better torque spread. That GT4 engine is capable of carrying 450 horsepower for 3000 RPM. That is a GIGANTIC power spread. The 2nd Gen Coyote is only capable of carrying its peak power within about 10% for only 1500RPM.

 

[RichBrew]

I know whats next China making FPC engines?

Seriously though it sounds incredible I hope it makes its way to a street version.

this video sounds terrible compared to hearing the car in person. This C8R was a Road Atlanta this past weekend, and did a demo lap just ahead of the first pace lap for Petit Le Mans. When it cranked, it sounded deep and low and rumbly, just like you’d want it to. On the track, it sounds nothing like a C7R. The GT350s that ran on Friday, sounded great, like raw power. The C7s running on Saturday, were by far the loudest cars on the track, like the were on the ragged edge and complete untamed. But this C8R was much quieter (for a pure race car), and sounded extremely refined. It made me think more of a high precision machine than the raw power of the other cars. It sounded more like a super car than an American muscle car. I loved it! The new sound suits the new setup and the new body style perfectly.

 

[Mountain376]

Since no one here probably knows when GM started development of their FPC, you simply cannot claim: “GM is just copying Ford” or “GM is just following Ford”.

The C8 is roughly stated to have been in development for 6 years. More than likely, the engine was in development before that. The time-frame matches up, in the least, when Ford also began developing the Voodoo.

5.5L is the max displacement allowed for GTLM/GTE. Same displacement ran in the C7.R. The fact GM is running (1) FPC, (2) DOHC and (3) stating the C8.R is the closest link to the road car is telling of why they are using a 5.5L DOHC FPC and not an LT Gen V based OHV.

 

[Grintch]

BMW, Audi, Porsche, McLaren...

Who else? Lol

Technically Ford copied Chevy.
1989 Corvette ZR1 featured a DOHC V8.
The DOHC version of the Ford modular V8 was not introduced till 1993 in a Lincoln, first use in a Ford (Mustang Cobra) was 1996.

Sponsored