Cars.com compare the PP1 vs PP2

[w3rkn]

I understand what you are saying but have way too much road racing experience to accept the results as-is without an explanation. I want to see a PP1 vs PP2 comparison on the same tires.

Admittedly, I am used to a new set of tires every race weekend so my bias is that tires make a huge difference in lap times. And another bias I have as a race tuner on a budget is to isolate every part to see what is real versus hype as measured by lap times and race results.

Another issue I have with the video are the comments on the automatic being in the wrong gear in a couple of corners. It does not appear the paddle shifters were used, indicating either a lack of experience on Holly's part on how to drive a performance auto on track OR that they aren't very good paddle shifting. It would be great to hear back which of those 2 are the case.

Given that the stated goal in the video was to determine how much faster on track is PP2 vs PP1 and is it worth it Id say my comments are right on-point.

Yeah, but what you are talking about.. (an in-depth, all out shoot-out) is not what Cars.com did.

Whatever an exact stock comparison would be, the PP2's differences should be apparent to all. You shouldn't need a PP1 vs PP2 shootout, to know what a 1" lower suspension and different bars and gt350 programed magneride should do... The guy in the video already told you what the differences were, doesn't matter the track times were...

Those ties were just for general comparison, but the reviewer DID note the subtleties in the abs, psas programing and suspension set up. Which is the difference you pay for.


A direct comparison would tell us exactly what we already know... That fatter tires, lower suspension & set up = better corners, better braking, etc.

Sponsored

 

[Norm Peterson]

I mean i get you have a gt350, but not sure why they need to test it against one.. one would hope a set of tires and a little tuning doesnt let a GT get that close to a gt350 lol I guess it would be interesting to see though?

Actually, I think a 3-way comparison would have been better. It would have given some indication of where between the PP1 and the GT350 the PP2's track performance lies.


On the matter of "faster" . . . one second at the dragstrip or four seconds around the road course even while working against some amount of straightline acceleration handicap. Not a tough choice, no matter which of those means more to any individual.


Norm

 

[gixxersixxerman]

Actually, I think a 3-way comparison would have been better. It would have given some indication of where between the PP1 and the GT350 the PP2's track performance lies.


On the matter of "faster" . . . one second at the dragstrip or four seconds around the road course even while working against some amount of straightline acceleration handicap. Not a tough choice, no matter which of those means more to any individual.


Norm

Im guessing it would depend a lot more on which track they would be tested on also. Streets of willow the PP1vsPP2vsGT350 (on the same tire since some want it "fair") would be much closer then say Big Willow where HP means a lot more. the auto is always going to be faster. They should really just do a manual PP1vsPP2vsGT350/R how they come from the showroom then get the rubber as close as possible and see the difference............ still some one will argue about some thing either way.

 

[Trevor]

It's not your driving. Your stick-axle cars almost certainly had greater axle fluid capacity, plus the advantage of being able to shed fluid heat through the axle tubes that you just can't get with IRS.


Norm

I was joking and being a little sarcastic. That's quite possible. I haven't had the diff in the '17 serviced yet and I haven't compared the size differences between the two either. I might have to do that this weekend just to check out the differences in the center housings. I'm sure the proximity of the exhaust to the diff on the IRS does heat it up pretty good...but for the weekend track day, is the heat really doing damage or is a sensor just telling you it's too hot? In other words, if the diff reaches x degrees in temperature would it just disintegrate and rip a hole in the space / time continuum?
Honestly I think the PP2 is what the PP1 should have been all along. I could care less about the choice of transmissions as I would have picked manual anyway and I think it's great that the two were compared as is and not on the same tires. I knew there would be a gap because of the tires alone. No shock that a magazine / website driver extracted a 13 second quarter mile time in the PP2. Driving a decently fast stick car is becoming a lost art.
I've got a set of (4) 19x11 GT350 wheels and SC2's and man, what a difference just that setup makes. I wish I could have done a back to back comparison when I was at the autocross a little over a month ago, but even on the short course that was setup that day, I would wager to guess about a 2 second difference.

 

[mustang5o]

If I'm going to nitpick this comparison I'd say this:

1. Auto vs Stick - as has been stated, why didn't they at least try a lap with paddle shifters. If they got in the gear they wanted maybe that would have made up some time.
B. The Auto car was obviously heavier overall because it was the most loaded up premium model.
3. I would like to see what they would do on equal tires but that is not the point of this comparison. It might however, tell us how much the other changes are worth. Though both would have to be manual and weight about the same.

I'm seriously considering a PP1 auto car so #3 is self serving. Chances are I would do a premium and I would also make changes to make it better on track.

 

[TrackBred]

The latest comparison from cars.com. Compared the PP1 and PP2 @ GingerMan raceway. Laps times provided by Hollie Heiser from CGI Motorsports, who is also a track instructor.

A little disappointed in the track lap times but I'm not sure of the conditions weather wise as the video did show rain, but not during the track photo shoot portion.

PP1 - 1:49.3 / 12.2 sec 1/4mi
PP2 - 1:44.9 / 13.3 sec 1/4mi

You can check record lap times here. http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/gingerman-raceway

WOW! Although the PP2 was not a Drag car.. This is flat out embarrassing to even post. Hire a real driver and go back to testing. SMH

 

[thehunterooo]

Clearly the PP2 is the better chassis duh

And for all the newbies when it comes to comparisons on these forums the cars have to be 100% stock down to the tire pressure. No mods or adjustments are ever allowed!

 

[SlaughterOfTheSoul]

I understand the need for "stock for stock"comparison but my curiosity gets the best of me. I'd love to know what difference the "easy to change" parts make.

In contrast, tires are expendable. They also make a much larger difference in handling than anyone wants to admit. Unfortunately, they don't cure controllability issues that dissuade driver confidence, so they're not a cure all. It can be worth exploring IMO. Other car rags have been known to swap out tires and pressures to see what happens with surprising results.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I'm sure the proximity of the exhaust to the diff on the IRS does heat it up pretty good...but for the weekend track day, is the heat really doing damage or is a sensor just telling you it's too hot? In other words, if the diff reaches x degrees in temperature would it just disintegrate and rip a hole in the space / time continuum?

Reaching x degrees probably tips you over some margin of safety with respect to fluid lubricating or oxidation properties. Remember that lubricants get less viscous (absolute viscosity here) as their temperature increases.

I have no idea how suddenly things like film strength and hydrodynamic wedge stop working well enough and metal to metal contact occurs.

Honestly I think the PP2 is what the PP1 should have been all along. I could care less about the choice of transmissions as I would have picked manual anyway

This ↑↑↑

I've got a set of (4) 19x11 GT350 wheels and SC2's and man, what a difference just that setup makes.

I'm not the least bit surprised (got a pretty good benchmark of my own for wheels, tires, and only light suspension modification).


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

WOW! Although the PP2 was not a Drag car.. This is flat out embarrassing to even post. Hire a real driver and go back to testing. SMH

And find better weather . . .

Road & Track got their PP2 test car at 12.5 ET @ 113.6 mph
Cars.com did manage to get their PP1/10R80 as low as 11.9 on a different test.

That's about a half second difference, which is far more believable.

It's silly to discredit a MT car's dragstrip potential - or the skill of its driver - when strip conditions are deteriorating faster than the driver is getting his driving dialed in.


Norm

 

[Ace21]

1. Auto vs Stick - as has been stated, why didn't they at least try a lap with paddle shifters. If they got in the gear they wanted maybe that would have made up some time.

I noticed this also, just being in manual while in track mode would have easily soaked some of that gap. The fact that they left it in auto is totally laughable.

I like that they used the auto but everything else should have been spec for spec to the dollar, i.e. PP1 10r80 MR vs PP2. To me the performance advantage of the PP1 over the PP2 is the 10r80. It won't be as "fun" as the 6 speed, but it will be faster on the track, straight or twisty, in consistency and reliability pass after pass, lap after lap, and most of all the easiest on the street...BUT it is the least engaging without a lot of effort as a daily driver.

I know this will piss off a lot of you on this forum that are manual only, but if you actually look at performance and the technology used in modern day racing series you would understand why the 10r80 is so damn impressive.

 

[Spork3245]

TBF, the computer for the 10-speed can skip gears when shifting up or down AFAIK. With the paddles, you'd have to move between each. I don't know if that makes a difference or not, though.

 

[mustang5o]

TBF, the computer for the 10-speed can skip gears when shifting up or down AFAIK. With the paddles, you'd have to move between each. I don't know if that makes a difference or not, though.

In the video it was said they wished they were in a different gear so paddle shifting would have given them the gear they wanted. Instead of hoping the transmission will do it for you, just do it yourself. Then put it in drive and have a nice cruise home.

 

[Spork3245]

In the video it was said they wished they were in a different gear so paddle shifting would have given them the gear they wanted. Instead of hoping the transmission will do it for you, just do it yourself. Then put it in drive and have a nice cruise home.

I didn't watch the video as I don't want to support them after those awful times in the OP

 

[Ace21]

I didn't watch the video as I don't want to support them after those awful times in the OP

Well said, I wish I could go back and not watch it myself......

Sponsored