CA to Ban Sale of Gas Cars in 2035

[Ebm]

I'm sorry, but that's a huge bunch of PC nonsense. Complete opiate of the masses stuff.

EVs actually harm the environment more, over their life-span, than ICE vehicles. And there's no way California can move to 100% EV, they don't have anywhere near the electrical power generating or distributing abilities. Not to mention all that electricity has to come from somewhere. More coal fired plants? More nuclear plants? Neither are acceptable to the very people that are stupid enough to believe banning ICEs is a good idea.

And what are they going to do about bringing in all the goods that their citizens need? If ICE engines are outlawed, then how does all that stuff get into california and distributed.

There are several countries that are pretending to implement such a change. It's not going to happen. They will all keep pushing back the date of implementation, again and again.

Then you should look at the percentage of green-house gases that vehicles represent. It's like a tiny percent of the total. The vast majority of green-house gasses are natural to the environment.

This is nothing but retarded feel-good bullshit. The real environmental polluters are places like China and India, not the US and it's vehicles.

Lastly, this is the very definition of human hubris; some think we're the be all and the end all on this planet, and everything we do is so important and impactful. It's not, and we're not. When the planet has had enough of us, it will dispose of us. Like a dog scratching a flea off it's ass.

I get it. I used to be in the same thought process as you. But I dug in and started to do more research. Lithium is the solution for now, not a long term solution. They will eventually find something else.

Also, to say EVs harm the environment more than ICE vehicles is just nonsense. All that talk gets regurgitated and people spread talk like this like the California wildfires. It's comparable at worst. Yes, mining for lithium is probably the first thing you are talking about. But it isn't like oil grows on trees. Fracking for oil is just as bad. The fracking process or a byproduct of, can cause earthquakes to happen and have caused earthquakes before. Basically, the earth telling you, "I don't like it!"

Speaking of byproduct, the wastewater from the fracking process is injected deep into the earth and has been known to cause earthquakes as well.

There are downsides to ICE and EVs. Going forward, EVs in their current form are a better short term solution while we figure out something for the long term.

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[NoVaGT]

I get it. I used to be in the same thought process as you. But I dug in and started to do more research. Lithium is the solution for now, not a long term solution. They will eventually find something else.

Also, to say EVs harm the environment more than ICE vehicles is just nonsense. All that talk gets regurgitated and people spread talk like this like the California wildfires. It's comparable at worst. Yes, mining for lithium is probably the first thing you are talking about. But it isn't like oil grows on trees. Fracking for oil is just as bad. The fracking process or a byproduct of, can cause earthquakes to happen and have caused earthquakes before. Basically, the earth telling you, "I don't like it!"

Speaking of byproduct, the wastewater from the fracking process is injected deep into the earth and has been known to cause earthquakes as well.

There are downsides to ICE and EVs. Going forward, EVs in their current form are a better short term solution while we figure out something for the long term.

Dude.....

Think about this.

Right now, you can power a vehicle with diesel, gasoline, electricity, and there's a few hydrogen vehicles here and there. Propane too. There's HUGE competition in the market place, many different products and companies competing to provide you with energy for your vehicle, and your home. And homes also have natural gas and propane, as well as solar.

What happens when the only source of energy for your vehicle that you are legally allowed by law, is your local electrical conglomerate? With no competition, what do you think will happen to the price of electricity? And what will happen when electrical power production can't even come close to meeting demand? You think SCE is just going to be nice when it can rake in billions from people that have no options available to them?

Does the word monopoly ring a bell? Any chance Newsome's announcement was just a primer for a pump & dump of the California electrical company(s) stock values?

100% EVs are a political fantasy. Nothing more. There is 0 possibility it can actually work. It's just not feasible.

ETA; and all of the above is completely ignoring the obvious issue of where all that electricity will come from, and how it will be distributed.

 

[watisthis]

Dude.....

Think about this.

Right now, you can power a vehicle with diesel, gasoline, electricity, and there's a few hydrogen vehicles here and there. Propane too. There's HUGE competition in the market place, many different products and companies competing to provide you with energy for your vehicle, and your home. And homes also have natural gas and propane, as well as solar.

What happens when the only source of energy for your vehicle that you are legally allowed by law, is your local electrical conglomerate? With no competition, what do you think will happen to the price of electricity? And what will happen when electrical power production can't even come close to meeting demand? You think SCE is just going to be nice when it can rake in billions from people that have no options available to them?

Does the word monopoly ring a bell? Any chance Newsome's announcement was just a primer for a pump & dump of the California electrical company(s) stock values?

100% EVs are a political fantasy. Nothing more. There is 0 possibility it can actually work. It's just not feasible.

ETA; and all of the above is completely ignoring the obvious issue of where all that electricity will come from, and how it will be distributed.

Well, you got our lack of transportation and storage of renewables correct, but I wouldn't say the rest is. I suppose, there is no need to discuss this further as you have this all figured out. Honestly, I'm surprised it took us 150 years to get our oil infrastructure right when we have experts like this.

 

[Ebm]

Dude.....

Think about this.

Right now, you can power a vehicle with diesel, gasoline, electricity, and there's a few hydrogen vehicles here and there. Propane too. There's HUGE competition in the market place, many different products and companies competing to provide you with energy for your vehicle, and your home. And homes also have natural gas and propane, as well as solar.

What happens when the only source of energy for your vehicle that you are legally allowed by law, is your local electrical conglomerate? With no competition, what do you think will happen to the price of electricity? And what will happen when electrical power production can't even come close to meeting demand? You think SCE is just going to be nice when it can rake in billions from people that have no options available to them?

Does the word monopoly ring a bell? Any chance Newsome's announcement was just a primer for a pump & dump of the California electrical company(s) stock values?

100% EVs are a political fantasy. Nothing more. There is 0 possibility it can actually work. It's just not feasible.

ETA; and all of the above is completely ignoring the obvious issue of where all that electricity will come from, and how it will be distributed.

You realize oil(used to make gas and diesel fuels) is a monopoly too right? Or are you just completely neglecting to mention that. You'd be trading one monopoly for another.

Here's the difference... A war with the middle east could cause a gas shortage and/or price spikes. Have you already forgotten how high gas prices were just a few years ago? It didn't help gas station owners would price gouge too. It's obvious we have no control over prices on crude oil.

The other options you listed are not feasible. Hydrogen fuel cells are more of a prototype than a production model. Plus, have you seen hydrogen go boom? Strong enough to set off airbags without any impact.

Here's a sneak peak: https://electrek.co/2019/06/11/hydrogen-station-explodes-toyota-halts-sales-fuel-cell-cars/

I know you love your beloved V8. So do I. Keep it for as long as you can then move on.

 

[Ebm]

*pssst* an ongoing and escalating trade war with China could fuck us over on batteries. Good thing that's not happening right now

You missed the point... The raw material for gas and diesel, crude oil, is in the middle east(we have some in the US as well, but we have little compared to the middle east). The raw material for batteries, lithium, is found in South America. Even though China makes batteries, there is nothing to stop a different country from making batteries.

 

[NoVaGT]

You realize oil(used to make gas and diesel fuels) is a monopoly too right?

It absolutely is not.

Let me drop a knowledge bomb or two on you; the US is a net oil EXPORTER. I.E., we export more oil than we import. We are also the world's largest oil producer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production

Lots of countries produce oil. A loaded oil tanker can set sail for one destination to off-load it's cargo of black gold, and then change destination mid-journey once, twice, multiple times, as the markets and demand shift from one part of the globe to another.

Oil is the very definition of a free-market economy. Supply and demand. Tons of producers and buyers. Epically free-market.

Yes, the cost of oil goes up and down. But it's not anything like what would happen if there was only one source for oil. You think gas going up or down $1-$2 a gallon is bad? Imagine if it made jumps in $10 increments, or $100 increments. Imagine deciding between affording driving to work, or paying your rent/mortgage.

Take some time and imagine a world in which only one country had oil. Imagine what that would be like. THAT is what Gavin is promoting for California.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Regarding EV vs ICE life emissions: EVs are cleaner overall in their life span in states where most of the power is renewable or hydropower, like CA, or in the pacific NW (lots of hydropower). In a place like VA or where coal power is dominant (not sure if that is the case in VA, but it is elsewhere in the midwest and eastern US), low emissions (i.e., PZEVs or ULEVs) modern ICEs are cleaner over their life cycle. It's not a "one size fits all" solution. IT DEPENDS ON THE POWER PRODUCTION TECHNOLOGY.

CA electricity isn't created by coal fired power plants. Most of the power produced in CA is fairly "clean" - hydro, solar, wind, renewable fuel, etc. Those are not without environmental impacts, however, but certainly not as dirty as coal power which is more common in the midwest or eastern US.

That said - the 1st thing I thought when I read that the CA Governor (not even the legislature!) was banning the sale of new ICE cars in 2035 was (OVERREACH OF GOVT!) and that CA's power grid needs some massive upgrades to handle the demands required if millions of electric vehicles start sharing the grid. That's simply not happening with the current infrastructure. The upgrades required are on the order of hundreds of billions of dollars, if I had to take an educated guess, maybe trillions. Where is bankrupt CA going to get those funds?

Let me set one thing straight: I don't like that CA is mandating this - the free market should dictate, with steadily increasing emissions requirements on ICE engines as a proven acceptability. I'm not opposed to CA imposing stricter emissions limits on gasoline powered engines over time as has been done for decades, to an extent. If the EPA didn't exist, our country would be a rotting corrosive hell hole. If the EPA didn't exist, we would NOT have a 460 hp factory Mustang GT that gets 25-30 mpg on the hwy.

Regarding EV batteries: China and other countries reuse the worn out batteries that come out of EVs: to move a car requires high energy output, but there are applications where the energy output is less demanding, and worn out EV batteries can continue to be used for a time.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

This is true, supplementary grid power is a potential use for old battery packs. The issue still remains that truly dead cells are going to be a problem unless a viable solution is found to the recycling. The money just isn't there, so the industry isn't there. As you said, the market needs to make this happen, not by some decree from on high.

I admit, I don't know much about EV battery recycling tech., but I do shudder when I think about all those batteries eventually ending up in landfills somewhere, or more likely, hazardous waste disposal sites. Yikes. At least with an old ICE there's scrap metal to be had.

 

[Reese’s]

Since it’s an executive order for the year 2035, does it really even matter much? Couldn’t a new governor just rescind the order before 2035? I could maybe see concern with other states jumping on the bandwagon if CA actually passed it through Congress, but it didn’t.

 

[watisthis]

I guess we had better tell Ford, GM, Toyota, Mazda, Daimler aka Mercedes-AMG, Renault, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Jag, Volvo, and VW that their billions and billions worth of investments into EVs and battery tech/factories was a dumb idea. Should probably just fire some of the most intelligent engineers in the world too.

Grid load balancing, variable pricing, charging time incentives, cobalt being removed entirely, Nevada lithium mine and overall improved environment prosecutes, etc there are so many solutions that most just aren’t informed on.

Plenty of exciting things on the horizon but some people are just really against change.

 

[Adamone92]

strange..especially since considering around November of last year they made prostitution and pissing/pooping in the streets, and camping in the streets legal in san francisco. Its always been an issue now its legal. Due to not wanting to "discriminate against homeless". I feel there are bigger issues to worry about. Thankfully even though im stationed here for now, A) i wont be much longer and b) if i were brought here again, im an alabama resident and i dont see this law passing there for a very long time.

California is crazy.

 

[Mikthehun1]

I guess we had better tell Ford, GM, Toyota, Mazda, Daimler aka Mercedes-AMG, Renault, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Jag, Volvo, and VW that their billions and billions worth of investments into EVs and battery tech/factories was a dumb idea. Should probably just fire some of the most intelligent engineers in the world too.

Grid load balancing, variable pricing, charging time incentives, cobalt being removed entirely, Nevada lithium mine and overall improved environment prosecutes, etc there are so many solutions that most just aren’t informed on.

Plenty of exciting things on the horizon but some people are just really against change.

We're decades away from this being viable, not 15 years. I'm not against change, I'm against politicians trying to force change.

Let's look at some charts, kids love charts (source EPA 2014-2018):

I can only imagine that the gap between us an China has grown. Yes, they've been making efforts to reduce emissions, but the effect has been to mitigate the effects of growth, not actually cause a downturn.

Now let's zoom into our 15%. Transportation constitutes 28% of our GHG emissions.

And now a closer look at the transportation sector:

Napkin math time!

Our 15% of global emissions multiplied by the 28% caused by the transportation sector multiplied by the 43% caused by passenger cars multiplied by California's 5.6% share of US car registrations equals:

0.1%

If California manages to eliminate all passengers ICE's in their state, the global effect on GHG's is almost nonexistent. This is a purely political move. A feather in the "I care about the environment" cap. If we actually want to enact serious climate change we don't just need to drive electric cars.

We need to change our lifestyles, our economy, our entire energy grid, the food we eat, the cheap disposable goods we buy, everything. Even if we do all of this, we're still fucked. I'm going to continue enjoying my low-volume V8 car, because I know it doesn't make any real difference.

 

[Matti777]

...If California manages to eliminate all passengers ICE's in their state, the global effect on GHG's is almost nonexistent. This is a purely political move. A feather in the "I care about the environment" cap. If we actually want to enact serious climate change we don't just need to drive electric cars....

Exactly. Its a total disregard of basic logic and science. It scares me how politicians make decisions. Its like a little kid trying to please Daddy. Up here we have more and more carbon taxes so the average citizen has to pay more to drive to work and heat their homes and farmers have to pay more to run their farm. Its not like these are uses of energy that we have any choice about.

 

[NoVaGT]

 

[mindo389]

As others have posted, California voters decided what they wanted and got it. I don't have a problem with technology and I wonder if the government is actually smart enough to pass legislation to push for advanced technology. Here's an interesting article on Hotrod magazine's website: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/e-turbo-electric-assist-turbocharger/

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