Buying a GT350 or 24'GT-DH

[526 HRSE]

if you can stomach looking at this every time you drive your car, you a better man than me.
That dash is Muy jodido in my opinion!

You also have to look at the hideous outside of the Dark Horse every time you walk up to it. Yuck.

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[526 HRSE]

16s were solid cars. The 17s brought about the stigma of engine issues. The Gen 2 stuff is irrelevant IMHO, it's the same engine with a few differences. I have a 17 with zero issues. I had a 16 and it was solid.

How many miles in the 16 you are thinking of?

Edit:
I agree with Jeff. Steer clear of a tech pack.

Also have a 17 with zero issues - outside of a couple minor things that had nothing to do with the engine.

 

[matthewr87]

Me shifting at 8250 at the track:

My voodoo:

 

[dpAtlanta]

You also have to look at the hideous outside of the Dark Horse every time you walk up to it. Yuck.

I can live with the back from the photos, but the front does look like a Charger like @_zOmbIE_ said. I had noticed that myself... but I think he is spot on.
I will need to see this in person, but I don't have high hopes!

 

[passwords]

I get that ya'll are defensive of the voodoo. I never said the Voodoo was crap (quite the opposite) and I never said it failed to do what Ford designed it to do. Just said it will vibrate itself to death given enough time. You don't have to believe me - you can go talk to the Ford Racing School people, the racing/parts supplier engineers involved in the GT4 program, or the powertrain engineers at Ford. I have and it's informed my opinion.

Sure - we can argue all day about what defines success or not - but at the end of the day, the facts stand. Voodoos fail pretty commonly and that's something that someone needs to consider when comparing a car with this engine vs another similar car.

Personally, when folks are so scared of the engine they're buying 5-7 year warranties on it to extend beyond the manufacturers powertrain, that's a bad sign. And when you have seen as many completely stock voodoo motors explode as I have, you'd probably consider it a flawed engine too. Flawed doesn't mean crap - it just means flawed. Some of the best cars in the world are flawed.

I'm going to leave my involvement in this thread at that since I don't want to trash out the OP's discussion anymore than I already have.

Genuine question: how would someone like me, or other members on this forum, speak to:
1. The Ford power train engineers;
2. The Ford Performance racing school (people); and/or
3. The GT4 program parts engineers?

I personally would like to hear input from all of those groups, and specifically about how the voodoo’s vibrations lead to a higher than normal failure rate. You are certainly a pioneer on this platform and have solidified your own reputation as extremely knowledgeable and informed regarding the GT350, so I don’t doubt you have had those conversations. But it would be nice for us all to hear directly from people within those groups.

I think @Hack and @Inthehighdesert have summed up my perspective and the perspective of many others who have explored available information regarding the voodoo, including the sometimes nonsensical hysteria around it.

My truncated takeaway is, and has been for quite some time, that:
1. The early engines (through 2018) had ring seal issues that were the primary (not singular) cause of excessive oil consumption. These are categorized as “engine failures;”
2. Some other part failures occurred that got mixed in with the oil consumption conversation as “engine failures”;
3. The voodoo vibrates more than a typical cross plane crank engine, which to me is more of an engineering challenge than an “inherent flaw” and is something that can be addressed through a focus on how that affects the other elements of the power train.

So I have my own questions that I intend as a respectful conversation on this topic. The questions revolve around the statement that (1) the voodoo will vibrate itself to death (given enough time) and (2) the voodoo has a higher than normal failure rate.

How does the ring seal issue in the early engines, and the related oil consumption, relate to the voodoo’s excessive vibrations? Or are those issues unrelated - understanding they will always be correlated but not necessarily the cause? When talking about the many voodoo “engine failures” you have witnessed how many of those are unrelated to excessive oil consumption? When talking about the many voodoo engine failures you have witnessed, how many of those are specifically related to excessive vibration inherent to the voodoo? When you state you have seen many voodoo engines explode, is that literal or figurative - are those all , or mostly, catastrophic engine failures, meaning broken rods and cranks? And finally, if the vibrations are so excessive, wouldn’t we expect the primary failure mode to be broken crankshafts and aerated blocks? This is not something that is a common failure mode in the M6G-based anecdotes.

One final thought: When the GT350 was introduced it was billed as the most track capable Mustang ever produced (at the time), and shockingly…a lot of people ended up tracking them. I am shocked (SHOCKED!!! sarcasm) that track abuse manifested a higher than normal failure rate in this one platform. Is it a higher than normal failure rate? Well after all these years we still don’t have any actual data to compare. How many of the failures relate to inexperienced owners tracking their cars without knowledge about how to properly maintain a tracked car? So we ALL have only anecdotes, “I knew a guy” stories posted on the internet, and our own personal experiences to inform our perspectives. More data would be nice, but without that, it would be nice for us all to hear from the people involved in engineering and maintaining this platform about what the actual issues are and how to best address them.

Please understand I mean this as a respectful conversation, not an Internet pissing match. I understand there is more information out there on this topic and I would really like to learn as much as I can.

(I am typing this on my backyard patio, and off in the distance I hear the sweet unmistakable sound of a voodoo rev-matching on downshift - I really do love the sound)

 

[jalts]

low mileage +19 gt350 worth the coin.. recommend finding the right seller that is a enthusiast and has detail records.

 

[JAJ]

I get that ya'll are defensive of the voodoo. I never said the Voodoo was crap (quite the opposite) and I never said it failed to do what Ford designed it to do. Just said it will vibrate itself to death given enough time. You don't have to believe me - you can go talk to the Ford Racing School people, the racing/parts supplier engineers involved in the GT4 program, or the powertrain engineers at Ford. I have and it's informed my opinion.

Sure - we can argue all day about what defines success or not - but at the end of the day, the facts stand. Voodoos fail pretty commonly and that's something that someone needs to consider when comparing a car with this engine vs another similar car.

Personally, when folks are so scared of the engine they're buying 5-7 year warranties on it to extend beyond the manufacturers powertrain, that's a bad sign. And when you have seen as many completely stock voodoo motors explode as I have, you'd probably consider it a flawed engine too. Flawed doesn't mean crap - it just means flawed. Some of the best cars in the world are flawed.

I'm going to leave my involvement in this thread at that since I don't want to trash out the OP's discussion anymore than I already have.

My point, for the benefit of the OP, is that some use cases and engine "upgrades" can contribute to shorter than expected engine life. Putting it a slightly different way, I'm not "defensive on the Voodoo". As I put it, the OEM baseline use case for the GT350 is different and the parts are different. The engineers who developed the engine had a use case in mind - over 300,000 miles of use, how long at what rpm and load - so they designed to that. Presumably, it was more demanding than the use case for a Coyote in a grocery getter, but less demanding than track-only at max revs.

As to the parts, as you found with oil pans and pumps, some (OEM Voodoo) work well and will last for a long time and others (GT500) don't. So, let's assume the FP engineers knew full well how much vibration there was and that they had to isolate and manage it. They put compliance where it was needed, perhaps into the engine mounts to keep vibration out of the chassis, and they ruggedized other bits (with exhaust counter-balance weights and so on) to ensure that the vibration in the normal use case didn't cause premature failure of the engine or the chassis.

So, my belief is that if a factory Voodoo is used "normally" and it remains unmodified, there's a good chance it'll last a very long time.

 

[Firsttexan]

Good question. I just bought a low mileage 2017 GT 350. In Oxford white/ Blue over the top stripes.
I am only buying cars that show potential for appreciation. On top of being something I really want to own. This car hit both those spots.

Update: I declined the sale of the 2017. The potential engine issues scared me off.Or should I say, the improvements on the Gen II won me over. I am now looking for the same car in a Gen II. 2018-20. I have time for the right car.

 

[dpAtlanta]

I love my 46,000 mile VooDoo with ZERO problems.
Thanks Adam Stier with Ford Performance…..!!!!!!!

What a great car… Chewbacca gargling Ford Philharmonic 32 Valve Orchestra that just makes you want to keep driving even though you have already arrived.

 

[steveespo]

If you seriously track a GT350 you will experience multiple failures related to the basic configuration of the engine. Starters, alternators, block cracking, early oil filter and oil line loosening, piston scuffing and ring land failures are all very common on track used GT350s. Some of the issues were addressed in the later engines but most of the rpm related issues such as valve spring breakage and rocker trunnion failing still occur. I run with probably the King of track GT350 drivers, who before he converted to cross plane 5.2s had close to 45,000 miles on track in GT350 flat planes. He also had 7 engines replaced, failure modes were all of the above. It is a great performer, but the expectation for inspection and refresh on any road race Ford 5.2 is right around 25 hours or 2500 miles. That inspection needs to include leak down and compression testing, bore wear, valve spring replacement, oil pump inspection, block check for cracks and an oil analysis to check bearing wear. Street driven cars will probably last forever, but track driven cars its not if, but when.

 

[dpAtlanta]

 

[JAJ]

If you seriously track a GT350 you will experience multiple failures related to the basic configuration of the engine. Starters, alternators, block cracking, early oil filter and oil line loosening, piston scuffing and ring land failures are all very common on track used GT350s. Some of the issues were addressed in the later engines but most of the rpm related issues such as valve spring breakage and rocker trunnion failing still occur. I run with probably the King of track GT350 drivers, who before he converted to cross plane 5.2s had close to 45,000 miles on track in GT350 flat planes. He also had 7 engines replaced, failure modes were all of the above. It is a great performer, but the expectation for inspection and refresh on any road race Ford 5.2 is right around 25 hours or 2500 miles. That inspection needs to include leak down and compression testing, bore wear, valve spring replacement, oil pump inspection, block check for cracks and an oil analysis to check bearing wear. Street driven cars will probably last forever, but track driven cars its not if, but when.

Exactly! A used street-driven GT350 that's being bought for street driving is a very different situation than a heavily tracked car.

 

[JAJ]

Was easy to did it? Expensive?

The kits you can get now are quite easy to install, and as for cost, I don't remember the whole thing from 5 years ago but I think it's about $1k USD or so.

 

[460Fred]

It was/is. Several went from 3rd to 1st routinely. Watched one gentlemen(drove his 350 to the school), stuff it in to first gear at the braking point going in to the chicane and put the car in to the wall. Nasically made a right turn at speed. Not sure what his speed was at the start of braking but I was in the 135-140 range. Felt really bad for him, was his bday to and didn't buy the track insurance. The other thing that was pretty prevalent was people having the clutch partially engaged most of the time.

I witnessed (after reviewing my track footage) something similar.
Right after turn 17 a gentleman spun and backed into the wall. He was in the group in front of us.
Earlier in the day, that same driver was talking to a friend vocalizing he didn’t buy the insurance.
Man, everyone felt for the guy. Sad.

 

[dpAtlanta]

The 2019/2020 Voodoo's are doing well. The owner's have a superiority complex about them

I have ZERO SUPERIORITY COMPLEX about my 2019…. You know not of what you speak my friend. Be careful on general insults… they are usually emotionally driven.

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