Alignment Numbers

5OSONIC

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Hey guys, do these numbers look okay? Is it okay to have negative toe on FL and positive on FR?

Thanks,
20200713_182027.jpg
 
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NightmareMoon

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Yeah looks fine for a car w/o camber bolts or plates. Full send.
 

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That front camber is a lot for the street.

My street settings are around -1.4 camber all around. With -0.2 total toe front and +0.2 total toe rear and the car is on rails.
 

Norm Peterson

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Hey guys, do these numbers look okay? Is it okay to have negative toe on FL and positive on FR?
All that means here is that the steering isn't dead-centered. But it's by such a small amount (and still toe in as far as total toe is concerned) it's not worth further work for its own sake.

Neither of those front camber values is particularly bad as long as you tend to hustle the car around curves and corners with somewhat more enthusiasm than your average Camry-driving commuter. I suppose for pure street driving that's not that enthusiastic you could have that -1.9° brought down to -1.6°, which would change the toe a bit (left front toe should go to a slightly positive number). But that means camber plates or Ford's own camber procedure (either of those approaches being preferable by far to aftermarket crash bolt solutions).


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

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Long, but both you and OP need to read through it all.

@5OSONICAs far as your question on toe, each side should be negative
Gonna pause you right there. By convention, front toe-in is positive, not negative.


and the same so the car goes straight. With one being positive and the other negative...we must look at that “total toe” number
You'd like them to be the same, but it is not necessary for them to be precisely the same. What happens when they are not equal is you'll steer the car slightly so that in actual driving the toes effectively become the same ("balanced" may be a better word here). That's your 'Steer Ahead' readout.

(it must be negative to not get tire wear) which is actually good
Look again. Total toe is positive, it's the steer ahead that's negative, indicating that you'd be steering the car a really tiny amount to the right. You're never going to notice.


but the only reason it’s good is because your camber is sooo off.
Ummmm, no. While it's true that pulling the left front camber back a little will draw the left side toe inward toward where it belongs for most street driving, camber is not the cause of the toe settings being unequal (because you adjust front toe only after setting front camber).


Take from me, you need to get some BMR cam bolts ($34)
If you're going to mess with camber, either do so with plates or use Ford's own bolts and factory-approved procedure. Half-strength aftermarket camber bolts (aka "crash bolts" in the fix-it-cheap side of the repair industry) are neither Ford-approved nor as good as the OE fasteners that you'd be throwing away.


and adjust the front camber to -0.7 on each side. If you don’t do this you are gonna go through tires like crazy and have excessive road noise. I had a similar issue with my 2016 GTPP. I hated the noise and was burning through tires every 18,000 miles. And that was after getting toe alignments not addressing the camber of -1.8 on my car. Once I did decide to address the issue with camber, the road noise was minimal and the ride was much better. I took my last set of oem tires to 31,000 miles after fixing the camber and toe.
What that tells me is that your driving is mostly highway and you do little or no cornering that's any harder than what the average Toyota Corolla driver puts his car through. That may be fine for you, but even though it's Ford's preferred setting that does not make it the right setting for everybody. It'd be a terrible setting for anybody who does tend to drive through the curves and corners with much . . . let's call it 'enthusiasm'.


Also, don’t take it to firestone...or any chain store...those guys suck. Take it to a legit alignment shop. Most of those chain stores only adjust toe, they have very little experience adjusting camber.
Sounds about right.


Now is it okay to drive on?...yes...but just know you’re going to spend money on tires sooner than later and road noise is going to occur with that camber. If you value longevity of your tires and low road noise you should address the camber. You will not regret it.
People should realize that there is no universally-applicable "ideal camber". It depends too much on how the individual drives. OP may well be OK with Ford's/your preferred setting, but then again it's equally possible for him to be better off with it equalized at -1.6° (I know I can reliably get between 10,000 and 12,500 miles tread life per 100 treadwear with -1.9° front camber). But more than likely OP's ideal camber will fall somewhere in between what works for you in your driving and what works for me in mine (which is decidedly "not gentle" once the road stops going straight ahead).


Norm
 
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5OSONIC

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Norm, thanks for taking the time to give an A+ response. I feel a lot better about those numbers now haha. However, since the alignment has a 30 day warranty, I might take it back and ask if they could get the front toes to be the same. The steer ahead is a bit annoying (having to steer slightly to the right to go straight).

Thanks!
 

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Norm, thanks for taking the time to give an A+ response. I feel a lot better about those numbers now haha. However, since the alignment has a 30 day warranty, I might take it back and ask if they could get the front toes to be the same. The steer ahead is a bit annoying (having to steer slightly to the right to go straight).

Thanks!
If I were you I would straight go to -0.1 per side for total -0.2 to match your rear +0.2 toe anyway.
 

Norm Peterson

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Negative front toe (toe out) is more responsive for track use but can be twitchy in street driving. Positive front toe sacrifices a little turn-in response in exchange for less busy/less tiring street duty.


Norm
 

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I thought we all drove Mustangs here, not mini vans :facepalm:
The recommended range from Ford is -0.3 to -1.8.... -0.7 is the direct center of that recommendation range and is what ideally tuned GT Performance Packs, Bullitts, and GT350 are recommended to be at. So to claim that this recommendation is for a mini van driver or a Camry driver is childish.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, mine is for drivers that don't want to buy tires every year and don't like road noise. And obviously the alignment numbers for camber are red on his sheet for a reason. I happen to value my money... nobody on here needs to do what i recommend. It's simply a suggestion...as well as manufacturers range.
 

Ewheels

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The recommended range from Ford is -0.3 to -1.8.... -0.7 is the direct center of that recommendation range and is what ideally tuned GT Performance Packs, Bullitts, and GT350 are recommended to be at. So to claim that this recommendation is for a mini van driver or a Camry driver is childish.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, mine is for drivers that don't want to buy tires every year and don't like road noise. And obviously the alignment numbers for camber are red on his sheet for a reason. I happen to value my money... nobody on here needs to do what i recommend. It's simply a suggestion...as well as manufacturers range.
Ford's recommended range is to cover all types of drivers, environments, type of use, and frankly to keep themselves from getting sued for whatever issue people think up. These heavy cars love camber and perform miles better with camber. Track guys are using -3.0 to -4.0 camber in front.

Also, camber does not wear tires; toe does (reasonable camber, not stance-bro camber). Sports cars are noisy, if a quiet commuter car is what you're looking for, maybe a Mustang wasn't the best choice.
 

Shmoke

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Ford's recommended range is to cover all types of drivers, environments, type of use, and frankly to keep themselves from getting sued for whatever issue people think up. These heavy cars love camber and perform miles better with camber. Track guys are using -3.0 to -4.0 camber in front.

Also, camber does not wear tires; toe does (reasonable camber, not stance-bro camber). Sports cars are noisy, if a quiet commuter car is what you're looking for, maybe a Mustang wasn't the best choice.
Once again, my recommendation is basically manufacturer's specs, it's precisely in the middle of Ford's range. You want to say that choosing a Mustang wasn't the best choice because I'm recommending the center of Ford's specs??...that's laughable. It still handles great during corning. And btw...I never made a claim that camber alone actually wears tires. However, it's common sense that it'll wear on the insides over time. I did claim that too much camber will cause wearing on the insides as apposed to outsides. So my opinion is "too much" isn't great because what i experienced. You'll have half tread life left on the outsides while the insides will be bald. That is a fact that the tire will wear like that. This is why i said too much isn't good, that's my opinion and what i experienced. Currently my GT has no road noise and performs amazing during cornering. You can argue that more camber on the outer range of Ford's specs is great all you want, that's more track oriented and ofcourse your opinion. I personally don't prefer that, but maybe you do. But there are many that back up my claim...don't take my word for it. You can go to cjponyparts.com or americanmucle.com and read the 100s of happy reviews of people that bought caster camber plates or camber bolts to get in the center of manufacturers specs primarily for tire wear as well as for adding more negative camber for track oriented setups. So before you make claims that maybe a Mustang was not a great choice for me... perhaps you should consider that not everyone here is taking their cars to a track.
 

Ewheels

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...not everyone here is taking their cars to a track.
Ain't that the sad truth

Edit: to bring this back to the main topic, if you want to make your Mustang perform as best as it can, add as much front camber as you can get away with. If you're on a budget or you want to turn your sports car into a basic commuter, add as little camber as possible.
 
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Norm Peterson

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The recommended range from Ford is -0.3 to -1.8.... -0.7 is the direct center of that recommendation range and is what ideally tuned GT Performance Packs, Bullitts, and GT350 are recommended to be at. So to claim that this recommendation is for a mini van driver or a Camry driver is childish.
Like I said, -0.7° would be appropriate for a Camry driver (yes, that number is right on top of Toyota's factory preferred camber spec of -0°43' for at least some years of that model - I looked it up) . . . or for a Mustang driver who drives his Mustang as gently as the average Camry or minivan owner. Driven like that with a setting of -1.8°, you'd never get the car rolled over far enough over in a corner to ever put much wear on the outer portions of the tread. Hence a less negative setting really is ideal for some people.

But that doesn't make -0.7° a good setting for everybody. Not even because it happens to be what Ford prefers. There is no such thing as alignment settings that are ideal for everybody, and factory preferred is only the factory's chosen compromise point. It's safe to say that enthusiastic cornering was not at the top of Ford's list of priorities, and equally safe to assume that Ford builds a little extra conservatism into their alignment specs in the name of giving the less skilled drivers among us a little more margin against having the car get away from them.

FYI, not all S550 Mustangs call for the same camber setting. This was the factory information as of 2015, and you'll note some differences among the various trims as well as differences from some of your numbers. Maybe that's changed, maybe it hasn't. Maybe the GT350's, GT500's, and PP2's call for camber settings that don't match either of the ones tabulated below.
Alignment_Specs.jpg



Everyone is entitled to their opinion, mine is for drivers that don't want to buy tires every year and don't like road noise. And obviously the alignment numbers for camber are red on his sheet for a reason. I happen to value my money... nobody on here needs to do what i recommend. It's simply a suggestion...as well as manufacturers range.
Red numbers on an alignment picture/printout only mean that the reading is outside the range that the factory has determined best fits their overall criteria. Nothing more than that; even inside vs outside the factory range is not a hard pass/fail in the real driving world. Guys who understand alignment in greater detail than numbers on a computer screen and "in the green = good, in the red = bad" know that.


Norm
 
 
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