Aces IV additive/octane enhancer

[Draklia]

Since I and 2 others have been testing and monitoring knock with NGauge we have found it very hard to run anything but the 3.75" pulley to keep knock at a minimum on pump gas. Whipple recommends and sells these with a 3.75" pulley for a reason. Very hard to get away with more pulley on pump gas, although some can do it. That may be variance in timing tolerance from motor to motor.

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Thanks for the info. Was the pump gas you were testing with the 3.75 pulley 91 or 93 octane? Hoping the answer is 91 because that's all I have access to.

Thanks again for all the information and time you've spent doing this.

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[Evo_Rob]

Now that the weather is nice, I'll do a couple of pulls on top tier 93 and a 3.5". The most knock that I've seen by eye is .75*(SA 18*) now that I've been running that pulley for several hundred miles.

 

[Roh92cp]

Thanks for the info. Was the pump gas you were testing with the 3.75 pulley 91 or 93 octane? Hoping the answer is 91 because that's all I have access to.

.

I tested 3.5 and 3.625" with 91 and 93 both. The 3.5" on 91 and ACES IV and was close to 5 positive knock and 13 total and with 3.62" wasn't far off. The 93 octane with ACES and without with 3.5" was at about 3.5-4 positive knock and 15 total, the 3.625" was just under 2 most of the time and 16 total. I don't have a 3.75" pulley. The guys in Cali who tested after me with my Ngauge had 3 positive knock with 3.75" with 91. Don't know why, because that pulley should live on 91.
Thanks again for all the information and time you've spent doing this

Now that the weather is nice, I'll do a couple of pulls on top tier 93 and a 3.5". The most knock that I've seen by eye is .75*(SA 18*) now that I've been running that pulley for several hundred miles.

I learned it very hard to watch the gauge by eye in the upper rpm range, to much going on. I used my phone to record so I could go frame by frame. Good luck and look forward to hearing your results.

 

[Phoenix]

a log for your viewing pleasure. just did this about 10 mins ago in mexico. didnt get to rev it to 7300 because a cow was in my way, in mexico obviously.

 

[Roh92cp]

im testing 93+torco right now in my car. had 12 gallons in the car and threw half a can of torco. should be 96-97 octane. my car is limited to 16 degrees of timing but im running a half-mile event in november and wanted to ensure my car didnt have any glaring hiccups with it.

a log for your viewing pleasure. just did this about 10 mins ago in mexico. didnt get to rev it to 7300 because a cow was in my way, in mexico obviously.

Well that is a great log, and your results with Torco look really good. At full song 1.5 ish load 100 TPS your knocker was really happy adding timing up to 2 degrees. You say your spark advance is locked or limited to 16 but your log shows you reaching 18 total spark advance column E (saftot) if that's correct. How much boost you running, long tubes or stock manifolds

 

[markmurfie]

a log for your viewing pleasure. just did this about 10 mins ago in mexico. didnt get to rev it to 7300 because a cow was in my way, in mexico obviously.

Only hiccup I see in this log is traction. Second gear pull became a third gear pull.

There was a knock event though at 6100(96mph) when you zoom in, but not a big deal still in the negatives afterwards and recovered fine. This is the main benefit of being in the negatives and not the positives. bouncing between 18 and 17.8 is probably caused by the cylinder to cylinder offset which actually varies the ignition advance between cylinders, What you are seeing is an average between them as saftot. The knock event probably occurred in one cylinder getting a slightly higher advance.

 

[Phoenix]

Well that is a great log, and your results with Torco look really good. At full song 1.5 ish load 100 TPS your knocker was really happy adding timing up to 2 degrees. You say your spark advance is locked or limited to 16 but your log shows you reaching 18 total spark advance column E (saftot) if that's correct. How much boost you running, long tubes or stock manifolds

i was told it was locked to 16 degrees but maybe it was 18. who knows? lol.

pullied for 12.5psi, stock manifolds with cats.

 

[Roh92cp]

i was told it was locked to 16 degrees but maybe it was 18. who knows? lol.

pullied for 12.5psi, stock manifolds with cats.

Your results with Torco are what I was hoping for with ACES. Still no word from Hazmat SRT or Brian on testing with Whipple or sending me out new stuff to test. I'm hoping the silence from them is a sign of them working to resolve and develop something for us rather than a loss of interest.

 

[Phoenix]

Your results with Torco are what I was hoping for with ACES. Still no word from Hazmat SRT or Brian on testing with Whipple or sending me out new stuff to test. I'm hoping the silence from them is a sign of them working to resolve and develop something for us rather than a loss of interest.

Agreed. I'd love a product that reduces knock/increases octane without the orange residue that may or may not (probably may) increase rate of change of spark plugs and wideband sensors.

 

[Roh92cp]

Agreed. I'd love a product that reduces knock/increases octane without the orange residue that may or may not (probably may) increase rate of change of spark plugs and wideband sensors.

Right and ACES is a fuel and motor lubricant and cleaner unlike Torco or Octanium.

 

[Whipple SC]

Guys, this thread was brought to my attention, I would like to address some things that seem to be confusing:

1. Octane boosters do not hurt engines, at least none that I've ever run. The orange is normal and yes it can be on the valve, but so can oil and many other contaminants.
2. Octane boosters that are commercially available that I've tested always hurt spark plugs faster then no octane boosters, we even state this in the instructions. It's the drawback of having poor fuel for suckers like us in Cali and other places #91sucks.
3. We are not testing octane boosters and nobody has contacted us to test octane boosters.
4. When Aces was brought to my attention, I was extremely skeptical purely by the qty/volume. I've been playing with fuel for years, been part of a lot of octane testing and combustion analysis. I can't say it doesn't work, but I've never come across anything that gets octane up to 100 octane, like 100 octane..... and anything that was close took some volume to work. Maybe they can blend it to make it work so I'm open to anything, but changing pulleys before testing baselines would not be recommended.
5. Anyone questioning the knock system on our cal needs to understand we have the ability to do whatever. We don't use factory stock source code, nor do we need to. Our only limitation is the amount of pins and time to implement whatever it is we want to. We are not bound by stock calibration and stock templates.
6. The knock system, to work to maximize spark advance at all times, it must use the feedback function and overshoot the target to find the limit. Therefore you will always have feedback and overshoot unless the octane is high enough that the feedback is telling it to keep going. Some tuners don't use this feature, some do. But we have to have a production cal that works with all different types of fuels, exhaust and conditions. This is by far one of the most powerful tools when used correctly to maximize power in varying conditions.
7. The cal has 4deg of authority from nominal before any other adders/subtractors. This means it can pull or add 4 deg's of timing. You can live with no issue with 0-4 deg of knock retard, that is not the issue. The issue is, if it needs more than 4deg of knock then that's where it can be an issue. Therefore 1-2 of retard is no issue as you have 2-3 deg left before pegging. There are many adders and subtractors due to coolant temp, head temp, IAT1 and IAT2, IAT differential, cat temp, etc.
8. We send all kits with 3.75" pulley which is what we have stated is 100% tested in all applications. We tested the 3.625" extensively on 93 octane only. Many have put the 3.625" pulley with lower octane fuel such as 91. Many have made it live but in general, its more than the octane can run with the system provided.
9. I tested on my own (literally, late night runs) a few different boosters and Octanium was the best of what I tested. I tested Torco, Royal Purple, Lucas, NOS and Octanium. I've run Octanium in my daily SUV, our Mustang and Camaro. I've also run NOS and Torco in nearly everything I've owned for the past 10 years but that's, as I have nothing "stock" and push the limits.
10. Meth injection does not do much. It works well on GM DI apps because most of those are out of fuel due to low inj and pump options (more now but little last year). They then use the meth as extra fuel so it works better. On turbos, it works good as the mix in the plumbing helps atomize it better, and that's also very high boost levels with extremely high temps. The ONLY way meth inj works is when you modify the tune to lean the engine out to get more cylinder heat and add more timing and/or boost. The water/meth cools combustion, but that lowers the BTU's and the energy it created thus lowering power. This also typically richens Lambda, therefore you have to tune it more aggressively to get more out of it and in general, its minimal at pump gas levels. I'm not telling anyone not to try it or that it doesn't work, but I will tell you the calibration needs to change to maximize water/meth injection and the nozzle placement is very important.
11. Running a 3.625" pulley, cold weather, 93 octane reaches and exceeds cobra jet cylinder pressure levels. Guys going to 3.50 and smaller on pump gas is asking a lot from pump fuel. While "some" have run 3.50" on 94 octane doesn't mean all should be doing it. The higher the cylinder pressure the more its going to knock. We did not calibrate for 3.5, 3.375" for pump gas. That was always intended to run race fuel as there was extreme limitations in controlling knock at these levels. From day one, we have stated, max 91 = 3.75", max 93 = 3.625".
12. If you really want to push the power, there is no substitute for race gas. You can mix VP, Sunoco and many others highest unleaded fuel, 50/50 and just love the power.

 

[Whipple SC]

Thanks. Do you recall the mixture Dustin used in his testing or have a link to that thread/post?

1 can with 1 tank of fuel. Tried 2 cans to 1 tank, didn't help. This is with our pathetic 91 octane, at the time winter blend.

 

[Roh92cp]

Guys, this thread was brought to my attention, I would like to address some things that seem to be confusing:

1. Octane boosters do not hurt engines, at least none that I've ever run. The orange is normal and yes it can be on the valve, but so can oil and many other contaminants.
2. Octane boosters that are commercially available that I've tested always hurt spark plugs faster then no octane boosters, we even state this in the instructions. It's the drawback of having poor fuel for suckers like us in Cali and other places #91sucks.
3. We are not testing octane boosters and nobody has contacted us to test octane boosters.
4. When Aces was brought to my attention, I was extremely skeptical purely by the qty/volume. I've been playing with fuel for years, been part of a lot of octane testing and combustion analysis. I can't say it doesn't work, but I've never come across anything that gets octane up to 100 octane, like 100 octane..... and anything that was close took some volume to work. Maybe they can blend it to make it work so I'm open to anything, but changing pulleys before testing baselines would not be recommended.
5. Anyone questioning the knock system on our cal needs to understand we have the ability to do whatever. We don't use factory stock source code, nor do we need to. Our only limitation is the amount of pins and time to implement whatever it is we want to. We are not bound by stock calibration and stock templates.
6. The knock system, to work to maximize spark advance at all times, it must use the feedback function and overshoot the target to find the limit. Therefore you will always have feedback and overshoot unless the octane is high enough that the feedback is telling it to keep going. Some tuners don't use this feature, some do. But we have to have a production cal that works with all different types of fuels, exhaust and conditions. This is by far one of the most powerful tools when used correctly to maximize power in varying conditions.
7. The cal has 4deg of authority from nominal before any other adders/subtractors. This means it can pull or add 4 deg's of timing. You can live with no issue with 0-4 deg of knock retard, that is not the issue. The issue is, if it needs more than 4deg of knock then that's where it can be an issue. Therefore 1-2 of retard is no issue as you have 2-3 deg left before pegging. There are many adders and subtractors due to coolant temp, head temp, IAT1 and IAT2, IAT differential, cat temp, etc.
8. We send all kits with 3.75" pulley which is what we have stated is 100% tested in all applications. We tested the 3.625" extensively on 93 octane only. Many have put the 3.625" pulley with lower octane fuel such as 91. Many have made it live but in general, its more than the octane can run with the system provided.
9. I tested on my own (literally, late night runs) a few different boosters and Octanium was the best of what I tested. I tested Torco, Royal Purple, Lucas, NOS and Octanium. I've run Octanium in my daily SUV, our Mustang and Camaro. I've also run NOS and Torco in nearly everything I've owned for the past 10 years but that's, as I have nothing "stock" and push the limits.
10. Meth injection does not do much. It works well on GM DI apps because most of those are out of fuel due to low inj and pump options (more now but little last year). They then use the meth as extra fuel so it works better. On turbos, it works good as the mix in the plumbing helps atomize it better, and that's also very high boost levels with extremely high temps. The ONLY way meth inj works is when you modify the tune to lean the engine out to get more cylinder heat and add more timing and/or boost. The water/meth cools combustion, but that lowers the BTU's and the energy it created thus lowering power. This also typically richens Lambda, therefore you have to tune it more aggressively to get more out of it and in general, its minimal at pump gas levels. I'm not telling anyone not to try it or that it doesn't work, but I will tell you the calibration needs to change to maximize water/meth injection and the nozzle placement is very important.
11. Running a 3.625" pulley, cold weather, 93 octane reaches and exceeds cobra jet cylinder pressure levels. Guys going to 3.50 and smaller on pump gas is asking a lot from pump fuel. While "some" have run 3.50" on 94 octane doesn't mean all should be doing it. The higher the cylinder pressure the more its going to knock. We did not calibrate for 3.5, 3.375" for pump gas. That was always intended to run race fuel as there was extreme limitations in controlling knock at these levels. From day one, we have stated, max 91 = 3.75", max 93 = 3.625".
12. If you really want to push the power, there is no substitute for race gas. You can mix VP, Sunoco and many others highest unleaded fuel, 50/50 and just love the power.

Thank you Dustin for coming forward and clearing things up here. I've been trying to get to the bottom of this for the benefit of myself and others here with ACES and the Whipple knock logic. Much appreciated all your help and the Whipple team in the last weeks as I've been prying for information.

 

[markmurfie]

I'm sure whipple's calibration and use of the knock sensor system is optimal. I am and was disputing positive knock values are where you will see the most power. If the value goes positive its saving your engine from knock. If you look at the picture in my last post you will see the red line (knock value) is in the negatives. It has small ups and downs as the system follows what its sensing as borderline knock for the fuel. I have never seen a log that shows this behaviour when this values is in the positives. It's always more staircase looking. If the system is in the positive knock values often from fuel quality, you would want the octane adjustment table from the knock learn to be applied so that the system can use the feedback/overshoot to find the borderline of the fuel and not just be in "survival mode." Whipple flare tool mentions this as a feature so Im sure its in there. People running smaller pulleys and lower octane may have even triggered this and actually be running a lower total ignition advance, but you would have to see logs to confirm. Most tuners also zero out this table and tell customers you need better fuel. When you're selling a 93 only tune I guess that's an acceptable response. Some tuners also zero out ignition tables based on coolant temp, head temp, IAT1 and IAT2, IAT differential, cat temp, etc. compensation tables and make it rely solely on the knock system or noting but what they have in the borderline table. If you add up the compensation needed for each of these that could be plus or minus 5* in its self if environmental and engine conditions lined up just right. Makes it simple for the tuner but not better for the ECU to control the engine with.

 

[TheHydro]

I changed gas stations and I'm still seeing about 4* of positive knock with 91 octane and 3.75 pulley. Should I be concerned or is this normal with 91 octane?

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