2018 Performance Pack - A big step BACKWARDS

[Norm Peterson]

Devils advocate here - does anyone really care about the ring times?

A little, but only a little.

I'd be dividing the 'ring lap times by somewhere between 5.5 and 7 to get an idea of how two cars' ring times might match up on the tracks that I do or ever likely will drive on myself. It's just a datapoint that probably isn't worth any more than third tie-breaker.


Norm

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[Grintch]

[*]Ford still has to make a business case to sell two relatively low-volume high performance cars that are trending towards being identical to each other. There's no way a really strong PP Level 2 won't cannibalize sales of the GT350 from the track rat crowd.
[/LIST]

Given Ford doesn't make enough GT350's to satisfy demand, they don't really have to worry about reduced sales. The dealers might have to worry about reduced ADM's though.

Definitely rename the PP2 to Mach 1 or Track Pack, as PP2 has zero sex appeal. But if it's slower and more expensive than a 1LE, I won't buy one.

So what should a Track Pack look like? A lots of track rats are going to replace things like the shocks (coilovers) and seats anyway. So should we keep Magride and Recaros as options? We also need a clean, good looking trailer hitch option for those tire/tool trailers. All the current aftermarket hitches are ugly as hell.

 

[NoVaGT]

Definitely rename the PP2 to Mach 1 or Track Pack, as PP2 has zero sex appeal.

C'mon track guy!!!

The people that would know what PP2 means, much less actually pay for it, couldn't care less about it's name's "sex appeal". They want actual performance, genuine dynamic abilities.

 

[Grintch]

C'mon track guy!!!

The people that would know what PP2 means, much less actually pay for it, couldn't care less about it's name's "sex appeal". They want actual performance, genuine dynamic abilities.

So not a single current PP (or Boss, or Shelby) owner bought it because of it's reputation or because it was the top performing option? Then never drove on track, or in an autocross, or even particularly hard?

But I agree that the name matters less than the hardware.

 

[NoVaGT]

So not a single current PP (or Boss, or Shelby) owner bought it because of it's reputation or because it was the top performing option? Then never drove on track, or in an autocross, or even particularly hard?

But I agree that the name matters less than the hardware.

I'd guess you and I have different ideas on what the PP2 will be. I'm not thinking it will be some special addition, like a Boss or Shelby, just different tires, wheels, maybe some suspension up-grades from the standard PP.

I'm thinking something only real gear heads will grasp, like the 1Le package on the Camaro, or Z51 option on the Corvettes.

 

[ALUSA]

A few things:

1. That's an entirely different model of car. Ford doesn't really have a car to match up with the Camaro/Corvette dynamic (the GT is in another league from the Corvette entirely) and neither GT350 can hang with the top trim C7 either. The GT350 like it or not is just another trim level of the same car and the sales demo is going to be more similar between the Mustang GT and GT350 than the one between the Camaro and Corvette. Honestly, the GT350 is more of a SS 1LE competitor than anything.
2. The C7 Z06 was put around the ring in 7:13.9 by a German magazine known for putting out conservative times whereas Chevy's own claim for the Camaro ZL1 1LE with their own pro driver at the wheel was a 7:16.04 lap. IIRC Chevy tested the C7 Z06 at the ring but wrecked the car and never tried to set an official time again. Watch the YouTube video of both laps, the magazine wasn't pushing the C7 Z06 nearly as hard as Chevy was pushing the ZL1 1LE.
3. The C7 ZR1 is coming and I'd bet you any amount of money it's going to put down a sub-7 ring time.
4. Ford still has to make a business case to sell two relatively low-volume high performance cars that are trending towards being identical to each other. There's no way a really strong PP Level 2 won't cannibalize sales of the GT350 from the track rat crowd.

Hey bud i never said a regular camaro surpassing a corvette. Camaro SS 1le even though lower priced than a base corvette can demolish it on the track. Even a Z51 packaged vette might have hard time against it. A regular ZL1 can be faster than a Grand Sport per Motortrends test. ZL1 1LE is faster than a Grand Sport Vette. I never compared anything to the C7 ZO6. That car is still the king of GM. Not on the straight line vs old ZR1 though.

Due to current and previous pricing the GT350 was never an SS 1LE competitor. It was once comparable to the Z28 but that died almost 3 years ago. Price wise its in the corvette's and ZL1 camaros category. Now with the upcoming GTPP Ford can finally compete against the SS 1LE. Similar price and hopefully performance.

 

[Grintch]

I'd guess you and I have different ideas on what the PP2 will be. I'm not thinking it will be some special addition, like a Boss or Shelby, just different tires, wheels, maybe some suspension up-grades from the standard PP.

I'm thinking something only real gear heads will grasp, like the 1Le package on the Camaro, or Z51 option on the Corvettes.

The 1LE and Z51 names have a history and provenance with gearheads. PP2 doesn't. A good name helps. Note at a suggested $6500 price, that's about as much difference between a GT and non GT.

But get the price and hardware right, and I can deal with a lackluster name. Performance Pack wasn't great either. But it was a good deal at $2400 in 2015. PP2 or Performance Pack 2 is a worse name, hopefully it will be a better value than a $4000 PP with no significant changes over my $2400 version.

 

[c-rizzle]

The 1LE and Z51 names have a history and provenance with gearheads. PP2 doesn't. A good name helps. Note at a suggested $6500 price, that's about as much difference between a GT and non GT.

But get the price and hardware right, and I can deal with a lackluster name. Performance Pack wasn't great either. But it was a good deal at $2400 in 2015. PP2 or Performance Pack 2 is a worse name, hopefully it will be a better value than a $4000 PP with no significant changes over my $2400 version.

Camaro is actually kind of confusing.... they have
1LE, Z51 ?, Z28, ZL1, etc... lots of price points, lots of overlapping performance getting there different ways.

But you can't compare Camaro to Corvette (as some have tried to), as its a completely different 2-seater model, that people generally don't cross shop as much. Corvette is a single guy or empty nester guy car. (stereotyping here) But living with a 2-seater is hard for a person with kids. (I had to sell my Cayman S)

I think the GT350 is just filling in the void, until PP2 and GT500 come out.
PP2 will basically match its performance. And the GT500 will blow it away. Just imagine a GT350 with an 5.2 CPC FI engine swap.

 

[bootlegger]

A few things:

1. That's an entirely different model of car. Ford doesn't really have a car to match up with the Camaro/Corvette dynamic (the GT is in another league from the Corvette entirely) and neither GT350 can hang with the top trim C7 either. The GT350 like it or not is just another trim level of the same car and the sales demo is going to be more similar between the Mustang GT and GT350 than the one between the Camaro and Corvette. Honestly, the GT350 is more of a SS 1LE competitor than anything.
2. The C7 Z06 was put around the ring in 7:13.9 by a German magazine known for putting out conservative times whereas Chevy's own claim for the Camaro ZL1 1LE with their own pro driver at the wheel was a 7:16.04 lap. IIRC Chevy tested the C7 Z06 at the ring but wrecked the car and never tried to set an official time again. Watch the YouTube video of both laps, the magazine wasn't pushing the C7 Z06 nearly as hard as Chevy was pushing the ZL1 1LE.
3. The C7 ZR1 is coming and I'd bet you any amount of money it's going to put down a sub-7 ring time.
4. Ford still has to make a business case to sell two relatively low-volume high performance cars that are trending towards being identical to each other. There's no way a really strong PP Level 2 won't cannibalize sales of the GT350 from the track rat crowd.

A lot of people buy Shelby for the name and limited run. It is silly to think speed and track performance is the only thing driving Ford development. Personally, if I were cross shopping a theoretical GT PP2 ($50k est) versus a GT350 ($59k), I would still dump the extra cash for a GT350. The Shelby will retain value much better, even if they are on similar levels of performance.

 

[Spart]

Hey bud i never said a regular camaro surpassing a corvette. Camaro SS 1le even though lower priced than a base corvette can demolish it on the track.

Let's compare that to your prior statement:

Look if Chevy doesn't mind their Camaro's besting their flagship Corvette's

So which is it, base or flagship? Because the flagship Corvette is the Z06, and will soon be the ZR1.

Nobody is denying that a higher end Camaro can beat the base Corvette. But the point has been made by myself and others that comparing the Camaro to the Corvette isn't the same as comparing the Mustang GT to the Mustang GT350. The Corvette is a different demographic compared to the other three.

 

[ALUSA]

Corvette has Z51 instead of 1LE in the camaro. It is a track package. Then you have Grand Sport and finally the ZO6. ZR1 corvette is on its way. The rest 1LE, Z28, ZL1, ZL1 1LE is all camaro. Camaro also have inline 4 and V6 models unlike the corvette.

 

[Cardude99]

If the pp2 matches the gt350 performance for a lower price with no allocation restrictions, I am curious. Will the existing gt350 owners be happy, pissed, or indifferent?

 

[Spart]

A lot of people buy Shelby for the name and limited run. It is silly to think speed and track performance is the only thing driving Ford development. Personally, if I were cross shopping a theoretical GT PP2 ($50k est) versus a GT350 ($59k), I would still dump the extra cash for a GT350. The Shelby will retain value much better, even if they are on similar levels of performance.

I don't disagree with this, but I still think that IF (and that's a big IF) Ford makes the PP Level 2 competitive with the SS 1LE, it will almost certainly cannibalize some GT350 sales. There are people who buy that car not for the name or for the FPC or any of that, but because of the performance.

That situation wouldn't be a bad thing for the consumer (more choice!) but it probably doesn't look like a smart business decision to Ford.

 

[bootlegger]

I don't disagree with this, but I still think that IF (and that's a big IF) Ford makes the PP Level 2 competitive with the SS 1LE, it will almost certainly cannibalize some GT350 sales. There are people who buy that care not for the name or for the FPC or any of that, but because of the performance.

That situation wouldn't be a bad thing for the consumer (more choice!) but it probably doesn't look like a smart business decision to Ford.

I have always been against buying rare or limited production cars for racing. I would much rather dump that money into a base model and build for the event you will be running. Then again, I am a poor engineer.

In my area, we need some GT350 sales cannibalized. The only ones I have seen on lots are jacked way up in price.

 

[ALUSA]

If the pp2 matches the gt350 performance for a lower price with no allocation restrictions, I am curious. Will the existing gt350 owners be happy, pissed, or indifferent?

The ones that own the GT350 for its unique looks, drivability, engine and rarity won't care. The ones just bought it for pure performance already made the wrong choice if you ask me, unless they are willing to modify the car and take the originality out of the equation!

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