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2018 GT E85 Lund tune....Long Tube headers next?

Jwh

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How much HP am I missing out on by not doing headers? Is it worth the price ? I can get some stainless power headers for 1200 installed.

6speed btw.

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LethalPerformance

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How much HP am I missing out on by not doing headers? Is it worth the price ? I can get some stainless power headers for 1200 installed.

6speed btw.

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We picked up a good amount by adding the headers over the E85 tune with stock manifolds. We added the Kooks 1-7/8" LT's along with their offroad pipe. You can see on our build progression how they helped with added HP/TQ but also lower ET's and higher MPH's at the track.

Let us know if there's anything we can help you with in the meantime.

Thanks!

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mikengail

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'18 GT Premium Vert A10. I made 394 stock on 91. E70 PBD tune by Trev got me to 432. Long tubes added 20 more. PMAS got me to 470. Fully broken in motor and a little more fine tuning got me to 475 where I am today. By the way, I bought almost all of my bolt-on's from Lethal and they gave me a great quote on the new Edelbrock 2650 TVS kit. I would recommend both their sales and technical expertise without reservation. Good luck and have fun...
 

stangman638

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So the CAI is pretty much useless as previously thought? Or am I misreading this?
 

mikengail

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No, but I used to think like that. In my case it worth 18 more rwhp...
 

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mikengail

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How did you test this ?
Local shop using a DynoJet. So, after adding long tubes, my rwhp went up from 432 to 452. After adding the PMAS airbox, I gained an additional 18 to 470. Tune wasn't a factor as it was already previously tuned for the E70 and long tubes. Of course, adding the PMAS necessitated a tune update, but the PMAS alone was still worth 18 additional horses, in my case, while still using E70. All of these runs up to the 470 test were done on the same dyno at the same altitude with the car having less than 2000 miles on it. It now has over 12,000, so it's fully broken in and the tune has been refined a little more to get me to 475rwhp last week. Again, same dyno, same altitude. I only did two runs and both were 475. By the way, the long tubes I'm using are the eBay Chinese made Pypes Step-Up clones that are a popular and somewhat divisive topic on Mustang Forums and Facebook sites. I paid $134 shipped free and had the same shop with the dyno install them for $500. They work great and give the car a very deep, powerful and tuned sound. Hope this helps. Good luck...
 

Jason18GT

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I'd love to hear a sound clip of your car with those Ebay long tubes!
 
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Jwh

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This is all so weird with the gain you are saying with the PMAS. That is a lot of gain for just a CAI and I was told by my Lund tuner that it was kinda pointless to upgrade my CAI as the 18+ models show no gains with one. The stock one is already bigger in diameter vs the 15-17 ones. I would think my tuner from Lund would know better than just about anyone since its their job that the CAI give no gains and its pretty much all in the tune in the 18+ models but then i see things like this and just wonder. Is that PMAS showing a gain cause its hood is open during the dyno?

Just confused.

@mikengail @stangman638
 

stangman638

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This is all so weird with the gain you are saying with the PMAS. That is a lot of gain for just a CAI and I was told by my Lund tuner that it was kinda pointless to upgrade my CAI as the 18+ models show no gains with one. The stock one is already bigger in diameter vs the 15-17 ones. I would think my tuner from Lund would know better than just about anyone since its their job that the CAI give no gains and its pretty much all in the tune in the 18+ models but then i see things like this and just wonder. Is that PMAS showing a gain cause its hood is open during the dyno?

Just confused.

@mikengail @stangman638
Same here, was told it will not make a lick of difference..

I do know it possible to have better numbers on a dyno between the 1st pull and 2nd and 3rd pulls..
 

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BigBlue

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The "gain" most folks see on the dyno is from having the hood up during the dyno run. On an open element filter, the car will show 8-10 more rwhp at times with the hood up. However, these are false gains as the hood isnt up during daily driving and heat soak is much more pronounced. The hood being up on the OEM inlet does nothing since it feeds through the bumper. I've seen back to back "gains" of 8-9whp on JLT intakes on an 18+ that completely vanish (aka drops 8-9whp throughout the curve) once you shut the hood and run back to back. Dont waste your money...
 

Zelek

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The "gain" most folks see on the dyno is from having the hood up during the dyno run. On an open element filter, the car will show 8-10 more rwhp at times with the hood up. However, these are false gains as the hood isnt up during daily driving and heat soak is much more pronounced. The hood being up on the OEM inlet does nothing since it feeds through the bumper. I've seen back to back "gains" of 8-9whp on JLT intakes on an 18+ that completely vanish (aka drops 8-9whp throughout the curve) once you shut the hood and run back to back. Dont waste your money...
Your inlet temps go back to about 5-7 degrees above ambient when you start moving. It's when you idle for long periods it jumps up.
 

BigBlue

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Your inlet temps go back to about 5-7 degrees above ambient when you start moving. It's when you idle for long periods it jumps up.
Either way, the "gains" are due to the airflow being so open with the hood up and they are gone mostly if not all once the hood is back down. We tested it multiple times and its very repeatable. Thats why you see most of the non-3rd party dynos for intake "gains" with the hoods up.
 

Zelek

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Either way, the "gains" are due to the airflow being so open with the hood up and they are gone mostly if not all once the hood is back down. We tested it multiple times and its very repeatable. Thats why you see most of the non-3rd party dynos for intake "gains" with the hoods up.
Right, I get that. Lets say I'm moving though, I would expect to get that same power in the higher RPM's with the airflow through the Velossatech and to the filter.

I'm not saying it's perfect though. Many of them have their trade offs and the 2018 having a bigger intake already makes the aftermarket ones pretty worthless. I went with the 2018 JLT specifically so I could go to the bigger 120mm inlet. I do have a 2018 stock intake though that I could remove the carbon trap and go with a drop in. That would probably be a great setup.
 

mikengail

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This is all so weird with the gain you are saying with the PMAS. That is a lot of gain for just a CAI and I was told by my Lund tuner that it was kinda pointless to upgrade my CAI as the 18+ models show no gains with one. The stock one is already bigger in diameter vs the 15-17 ones. I would think my tuner from Lund would know better than just about anyone since its their job that the CAI give no gains and its pretty much all in the tune in the 18+ models but then i see things like this and just wonder. Is that PMAS showing a gain cause its hood is open during the dyno?

Just confused.

@mikengail @stangman638
I understand the confusion. I was a total skeptic too. Of the four mods that I planned (Tune, E70, Headers and Airbox), I chose the PMAS to be last. I was that skeptical. Still, I could afford to experiment, so that's what I did. The PMAS only cost me $267. The first thing that I did to the car, even prior to the baseline pure stock pull of 394, was to smooth out the stock airbox. I removed the little static fumes filter inside and ground down all of the plastic ridges, bosses and casting flash. I also used a K&N high flow filter. 394 was the best I could do with about 800 miles on the car. The motor was still pretty tight.

One factor that might have helped my PMAS gain was that I was already pretty efficient on the exhaust side with Off Road Long Tubes and no resonator on stock mufflers. Another factor was E70. The only 91 test was the baseline; all subsequent tests were E70. No 93 available at this altitude. I suspect that the PMAS gain would not have been as high on 91, not in absolute numbers, but relatively.

As you may have already noticed, I don't refer to the PMAS as a CAI. I think that it a misnomer. I call it an airbox for a reason, the same reason that many skeptics recommend the stock airbox over many aftermarket open varieties. Hot under hood air. I know that this hot air is mitigated by the forward motion of the car, but it's still a factor to consider. And, yes, all of these tests were done with the hood open and a fan blowing towards the engine bay. I know that matters too and I don't discount it. But the numbers are the numbers. It was interesting for me and a big part of the fun of modifying this car.

Lastly, another factor may have been the much looser engine, after an additional 10,000 miles. My understanding is that the plasma spray bore linings are harder than iron or alloy liners and take longer to achieve full ring seal. And, don't forget that the last mod tune was still being finalized and finally settled, before these last two 475 pulls. Plus, Trevor Berkheiser of PBD, just emailed me an update based off of my 475 datalogs that he said may get me a few more ponies. Going to load it up today and test it next month on the same dyno under the same artificial conditions.

So, in summary, for my specific application at my specific location within the normal artificial environment of a dyno facility, here are my results (rwhp/rwtq):

1. 394.85 / 382.21 = Stock with smoothed airbox and high flow filter.

2. 432.79 / 404.26 = E70 Tune + Resonator Delete H-Pipe and Stock Mufflers.

3. 451.93 / 415.17 = eBay Off Road Long Tube Headers (Pypes Step-Up clones).

4. 469.93 / 396.69 = PMAS "CAI".

5. 475.43 / 408.03 = Finalized Tune + Fully Broken-In Engine.

Interesting discussion to me. I can't run at the local drag strip, since I have a convertible without a roll cage. I'm looking at a 4-point bolt-in so I can see how she runs at this altitude. My plan is to test with stock tires first. Then, upgrade to GT350 Half Shafts and test with a set of Drag Radials. After that, I'm looking at the Edelbrock 2650 TVS Stage-1 Kit on 91. May stop there. Looking "only" to get into the 10's. This is my daily...
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