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2017 CHEVROLET CAMARO ZL1 VS. 2017 FORD MUSTANG SHELBY GT350R: THE FOREVER WAR

FogcitySF

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Disappointing and proof positive that the "short cut" engineering techniques are seen by the emphasis of adding more power via a blower with less regard to how all the parts interact to produce the perfect vehicle. The Motorsport division of BMW for years argued that using forced induction was a short cut/"cheating" way of making up for deficiencies in chassis design and engine characteristics of perfectly linear and controlled high-revving and exhilarating power. Of course the M division lost all autonomy from BMW corporate and were forced to abandon all their prior principles as the M division founders were sacked or left the company, but I feel with the GT350, Ford basically allowed their engineers to get into a room and told them "do what you want" to produce a car that is both fast and special with a blank slate (where avoidance of forced induction was completely deliberate).

When I look at all the components of the GT350, there are very few extraneous elements to the engine and body design and the engineers spent a lot of time honing the perfect combination of power and chassis design, and unique characteristics unreplicated by any car that makes driving the car an experience in and of itself. Pretty much the entire design serves a practical purpose with nothing left "on the table". Of course extracting every single bhp from an N/A engine kind of forces you to not have many other compromises in any other areas (e.g. exhaust flow), whereas with forced induction, you can take more liberties in cost-cutting measures.


I just spent a day underneath a '17 SS 1LE Camaro. Removed the entire exhaust system, shielding, crossmembers, front half of the driveshaft, and the shifter assembly.

Good Lord, the Camaro is awful from a mechanical standpoint. I took plenty of photos and when I get back home in a few days I'll post everything. Suffice it to say, if you aren't planning on adding any mods either a GT350 Camaro will be fine. Beyond that, egads, stay far away from the Camaro. Just a couple, for you guys that love bottle necks or restrictions...
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Kurac

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Did you find the ZL1 you were asking about on the Camaro site?
I just wanted to see how many panties got ruffled, quite a bit it seems. Goal accomplished. No Camaro looks as good as my R. And that's not subjective, that's just fact.
 

mdmoore23

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I just wanted to see how many panties got ruffled, quite a bit it seems. Goal accomplished. No Camaro looks as good as my R. And that's not subjective, that's just fact.
I'm sure some of your fellow 6g members wouldn't approve of you going on a Camaro forum, just to make an immature troll thread. But anyways, how much did you get the R for, if you don't mind my asking?
 

Kurac

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I'm sure some of your fellow 6g members wouldn't approve of you going on a Camaro forum, just to make an immature troll thread. But anyways, how much did you get the R for, if you don't mind my asking?
Does it really matter? No Camaro owner believes you can get an R at sticker anyway.
 

4V Mayhem

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I just wanted to see how many panties got ruffled, quite a bit it seems. Goal accomplished. No Camaro looks as good as my R. And that's not subjective, that's just fact.

I'm sure some of your fellow 6g members wouldn't approve of you going on a Camaro forum, just to make an immature troll thread. But anyways, how much did you get the R for, if you don't mind my asking?
"Panties got ruffled"...?? LOL!! Looks more like they saw he was trolling right away and just made fun of him, lol!! And I never knew a subjective comment was a fact but hey, at what he probably paid for his R he's better off thinking it looks better.
 

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JT1

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The Camaro looks better than most other camaros, but other than the Mustang Also's, 74-78, the mustang has always looked better.
 

mdmoore23

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"Panties got ruffled"...?? LOL!! Looks more like they saw he was trolling right away and just made fun of him, lol!! And I never knew a subjective comment was a fact but hey, at what he probably paid for his R he's better off thinking it looks better.

Yep. I asked the man a simple question and he got all uptight. His "does it really matter" response is a classic sign of a condition known as DBR, aka Dealer Butt Rape.

(P.S. To all people that may respond, theres a reason why we're being hard on this guy.)
 

lemers

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"Panties got ruffled"...?? LOL!! Looks more like they saw he was trolling right away and just made fun of him, lol!! And I never knew a subjective comment was a fact but hey, at what he probably paid for his R he's better off thinking it looks better.

Well it is a fact that the Mustang looked better than the Camaro for model years 65-66 and 2003-2009.

:thumbsup:
 

Kurac

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Yep. I asked the man a simple question and he got all uptight. His "does it really matter" response is a classic sign of a condition known as DBR, aka Dealer Butt Rape.

(P.S. To all people that may respond, theres a reason why we're being hard on this guy.)
I'm flattered you have a hard on for me, but I just don't go that way. I already posted my deal a few times, so I'm surprised you didn't just do a search. Time will tell if the ZL1 1LE follows in the footsteps of the Z28 in pricing. I would ask what you paid for your ZL1, but I dont really care. I have yet to talk to or read about anyone who prefers the ZL1 to the R in driving experience. As long as you are happy with your ZL1, and continue to post on the Mustang forum, then good for you.
 

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J_Maher_AMG

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Yep. I asked the man a simple question and he got all uptight. His "does it really matter" response is a classic sign of a condition known as DBR, aka Dealer Butt Rape.

(P.S. To all people that may respond, theres a reason why we're being hard on this guy.)
Welllllll that's what happened to your little buddy there Mr. Mayhem... only he got farrrrrr more defensive than Kurac ever did.

There have been a good number of people getting R's at or near MSRP, with the majority admittedly "knowing" someone. In the high wealth regions I'm sure pricing went crazy; when I first posted on here last summer, places in Ontario and Quebec were selling the R's at $150K and up.... which is about $60K over MSRP...

I got mine for $5K over, and on a $91K vehicle, I don't think it's that big of a percentage to worry about. Considering only ~70 2016's came to Canada, it's hard to get one up here without having to travel across the country. The ZL1 is nearly the same price in Canada as it is in the US... huge value if you're in the market for one up here. Literally $75K I believe with the couple of options checked, so about $5K cheaper than a non-R 350 with the electronic/convenience packages.
 

Norm Peterson

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When I look at all the components of the GT350, there are very few extraneous elements to the engine and body design and the engineers spent a lot of time honing the perfect combination of power and chassis design, and unique characteristics unreplicated by any car that makes driving the car an experience in and of itself. Pretty much the entire design serves a practical purpose with nothing left "on the table". Of course extracting every single bhp from an N/A engine kind of forces you to not have many other compromises in any other areas (e.g. exhaust flow), whereas with forced induction, you can take more liberties in cost-cutting measures.
There's at least some compromising going on with how the GT350's primary pipes are 'merged' . . . I don't know whether it's fact or just suspicion that somewhere along the line somebody decided that a true FPC shriek was too far removed from "Mustang character". I know there's a video out there somewhere of a GT350 with 4 into 1 headers.

Never mind that unusual 0° - 180° - 0° - 180° crankshaft arrangement.

I'm not trying to put down the overall result, but even this engine (taken in isolation) and its exhaust could have been put together with fewer compromises . . .


Norm
 

4V Mayhem

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I have yet to talk to or read about anyone who prefers the ZL1 to the R in driving experience. As long as you are happy with your ZL1, and continue to post on the Mustang forum, then good for you.
I prefer the ZL1 over the Shelby in driving experience. And didn't you just talk about how you were over on the Camaro site? Lol!
 

Zitrosounds

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I prefer the ZL1 over the Shelby in driving experience. And didn't you just talk about how you were over on the Camaro site? Lol!
Two wrongs don't make a right!!!! lol
Its all good. The Zl1's can be faster and the world will still want the better overall car. I wanted a 997.1 because duh!!! Is the 350R a better performer sure but it is not an overall better car. I did not want to pay big money for a car with 20-40k miles not to include cost of maintenance. Wonder why a 10 y/o car is commanding such high prices? HMMM!?!?!.
To the MSRP conversation, I also got a smashing deal for my used R and I have first right of refusal on an 18 R. Albeit I have a long term purchasing history and friendship with the dealer, minus its service department. They SUCK!
 

Minn19

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In the long run I can see people looking back and saying "I shouldn't of sold my GT350 because it was such a unique car because of xyz." I'm guessing when you guys (ZL1 owners) move on to the next fastest thing you won't even look back twice at your ZL1s.
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